Nick Costanzo
Oct 8, 2007, 10:36 pm
* * * Comixfan Forums THREAD * * *
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THREAD : MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
Started at May 3, 2007 03:35 pm by Nick Costanzo
Visit at http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=42003
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[Post 1]
Author : Nick Costanzo
Date : May 3, 2007 03:35 pm
Title : MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/mangamerica.jpg" hspace=10 align=left border=0 alt="Mangamerica logo">By Marcina Riley, fantasyfiv@yahoo.com
A Grave Misconception
A few weeks ago I encountered a situation where an online watch group was expressing their somewhat outrage at certain manga products being sold on big name websites. This particular manga was not suited for children. Reading the comments, they made me realize just how much misconception there is with manga and anime. I thought maybe, in a vain hope, I could clarify it. I realize most of the members of this forum are probably a lot more open-minded than those on the online watch site. Regardless, it’s my rant, and I’m going to say it.
The first and biggest misconception I’ve seen is that anime automatically equals porn. I’ve seen this so often it’s not even funny. My step mom even told me the original Sailormoon was porn and that’s why it had to be edited for television. Having seen the original, it was laughable to me. Not only is it not porn, it’s meant for children. I’ve seen the stuff labeled as porn. What a lot of people don’t realize is despite being somewhat lenient by our standards; Japan actually has strict laws on what can and can’t be shown. Straight porn has to be blocked out. Oh I’ve seen really pointless attempts to censor, but they still have to do it. I admit there’s a cultural difference between what we and they see as racy, at least here in the States. I’m sure Europeans have a different point of view on this. However, it’s mainly just a cultural difference on how much is too much.
Here, cartoons tend to be really toned down, and in fact the old comic I used to review (Teen Titans Go!) was even more toned down than the original program it was based upon. I’m not going to debate whether or not that should have been done; all I will say is that it’s a matter of perceptive. I honestly think that most of the anime programs that say they are geared for a certain age group is in fact geared for that group. What I don’t understand is why it was associated with porn. I know boy anime was brought over and is still generally brought over before anime targeting females, but it’s still generally mild. Yes, there are some porn titles out there, but the number of mainstream stuff far outweighs that. They are the exception not the rule.
Another misconception is by the fans themselves. In this case, the title was drawn by western artists. The fan in question made an inaccurate remark. The remark basically boiled down to only Japanese artists can draw manga, and western artists can’t draw it at all. I’ve ran across this mentality a lot in the community. Usually, it’s by surface fans, those that have only seen a little bit of anime, or older fans, those who remember the anime styled comic rage that hit in the 90’s, I believe. I’m not saying they’re completely wrong. There has been a lot of attempts to create work without fully understanding the material they were mimicking. Unfortunately, that’s all it was, a very lame attempt to copy something. However, a lot of artist grew up on anime and manga, and even those that didn’t still can see what it’s really about.
Original Runaways artist, Adrian Alphona, is oft times noted on how manga influenced his characters look and feel. It’s not that they have big eyes and/or funny shaped heads. It’s how the characters facial features change, how they look. Basically, it’s an understanding about the medium. A lot of Tokyopop’s new artists have created really nice manga series; My Cat Loki and Fool’s Gold are two good examples. The art is beautiful and looks the way it should. Neither of these artists comes from Japan. It doesn’t change what they are drawing.
I guess it’s something that really rubs me the wrong way. Mainly because I read comics and manga, and I can tell the subtle differences between them. I understand how they both work and appreciate it. I know it’s hard for some comic book fans to find manga artists’ art believable, and likewise I think maybe many manga fans feel the same way about comics. This might help to attribute to the idea, but it’s still wrong.
No matter how you look at it, unless you’ve really experienced something, you can’t judge it fully. I think that’s the problem in both of these cases. People are taking someone else’s opinion and not forming one of their own. All I can say is that a person should at least know a little more about something before condemning it.
As I said before, I felt the need to address the topics because I feel it’s a grave error to make them. I’m not going to say what sites or anything like that, there’s a reason for anonymity, so I hope you can forgive the vagueness. Also, normally I mention titles for examples, but I’ve chosen not to so people who shouldn’t be watching them won’t try and find them. Call me old fashioned.
<center><hr width=75%></center>
Marcina Riley does not want you to literally call her old fashioned.
<center><hr width=75%></center>
The opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the writer, and are not reflective of Comixfan or its other staff in general.
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[Post 2]
Author : T. Martin
Date : May 3, 2007 06:01 pm
Title : Re: MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
Interesting article, Marcina. As someone who's read very little manga, I'd be interested in hearing from fans what they think constitutes the sylistic differences between manga and American books.
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[Post 3]
Author : Eric Travis
Date : May 3, 2007 06:59 pm
Title : Re: MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
Since Marcina started it, I'll add my own random thoughts. Muaha!
I am a huge fan of manga. Off the top of my head, I've got (in various stages of 'completeness') .hack, Ai Yori Aoshi, Amazing Agent Luna, Angel Sanctuary, Angelic Layer, Battle Royale, Battle Vixens, Berserk, Chobits, Comic Party, Deus Vitae, Escaflowne, Excel Saga, Gacha Gacha, Genshiken, Kiss Me Kill Me, My-Hime, Negima, Psychic Academy, Ragnarok, Rurouni Kenshin, Samurai Executioner, Saiyuki, Sayuki Reload, Trigun, and Yubisaki Milk Tea sitting on my bookshelf. 26 individual titles (times however many volumes)... And those are just the ones I can remember without looking. It's a broad, wide spectrum of styles and stories, but it is all 'Manga'. (Except for the Korean stuff, which is 'Manwha', and has its own typically distinctive stylings.)
One of the major distinctions between Western-style comics and Eastern-style manga is true creative control. Many times, the artist and writer of manga will be the same individual, but even when it isn't, there's a limited number of hands in the pot. Even manga-ka (creators) who have studios and employees to help them produce the work, there is one way to draw and depict a particular character.
It's not simply 'Spider-Man should be slender and nimble, and his costume looks like this'. It's 'Mark Bagley's version of Spider-Man is the corporate standard now', or Adrian Alphonse's version of the Runaways is the correct way to draw the kids.
Another aspect, and one that plays into the 'Creative Control' point, is that even the most ambitious manga titles (think: Dragonball Z or Naruto) are limited series. There is a set duration. A beginning, middle, and end, self-contained. In some rare cases, the story will continue in a new title (Dragonball -> DBZ), or will crossover within other titles by the same creative group (CLAMP's work).
The 'style' of manga is a little harder to clearly define. The big eyes-small mouth thing is typical, but it is also the cliche like 'superheroes wear tights to show off impossible muscles'. There is as much variety in manga artwork as there is in Western comics. Any comic enthusiast can tell the difference between John Romita, Jr. and Todd McFarlane.
I think one of the most subtle, but most important differences between East and West is the actual art of storytelling. It is not how the characters look, but how the story is presented. Western-style comics, generally, follow a certain kind of flow. You can anticipate when the 'cliffhanger' comes, or when the 'big reveal' happens. You know when to expect the huge two-page splash of the Helicarrier over the ocean. Likewise, manga has a flow. The way the action scenes are framed and presented. The way emotions are portrayed.
It's the story-telling aspect which, I believe, causes the friction when Western-style comics emulate the typical appearance of Eastern-style manga. The Marvel Mangaverse, for instance, was fun and a bit goofy, but it wasn't 'manga' and it wasn't 'comics'. It tried to straddle the fence, but there was obviously a missing component, and came across somewhat like Stephen King attempting to write a story in J.R.R. Tolkien's style.
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[Post 4]
Author : Alan Lynch
Date : May 4, 2007 07:57 am
Title : Re: MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
Good article, and it's definitely something I've seen around. Generalising all manga as being one thing or the other is as silly as saying all American comics are the same. The whole "manga style" boom in the 90s was incredibly misleading looking back - with more appreciation for the real thing - as it was all stereotyped big eyes and the like.
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[Post 5]
Author : STYLUSS
Date : May 4, 2007 04:42 pm
Title : Re: MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
Since the internet is breaking down the distance between artists and art of other countries there are many new coming writers and artists that know these two worlds and are able to make something that is being discriminated as having to belong to a category which is wrong to do. The only difference between the word manga or comics is the country where the word was created and they should have the same meaning for everyone. I saw Sailer Moon when i was a kid and at the time everyone reacted badly and when dbz came everyone saw everything and loved it. There are good and bad as in comics and animated series. Just watch and if you don't like it don't flame other people who actually like it.
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[Post 6]
Author : twincast
Date : May 8, 2007 03:06 pm
Title : Re: MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
No matter how you look at it, unless you’ve really experienced something, you can’t judge it fully. I think that’s the problem in both of these cases. People are taking someone else’s opinion and not forming one of their own. All I can say is that a person should at least know a little more about something before condemning it.
Or to quote a great German comedian: "Democracy is often misunderstood. You are allowed to have an opinion, you do not need to have one. - If you don't know anything, just shut up." - Dieter Nuhr
Anyway, while I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said, I have long given up trying to do anything about it on the mighty interweb. "I won't touch no manga" and "****** fake manga" fans are generally about as immature as it gets - like Transformers fan level immature - and that's a seriously scary place to wallow in for any extended length of time.
As for America vs. Japan vs. Europe ... I'm not sure how the situation is in the countries with a somewhat strong church, but Europe as a whole is kind of famous for not censoring people publically stripping or unintentionally showing certain body parts (outside of certain timeframes, essentially the timespan of the (former) afteroon talkshows). As for what's considered inappropriate (especially) in the comic medium - it varies, but all could be put on a scale between America and Japan (I'm ranting already, so I'll stop here), pixelation not considered.
Japan keeps baffling me with a very nonchalant attitude to the whole topic (to the degree I'm kind of envious because His Mighty Noodliness help me, I can't read or even browse through pervy stuff in public) on the one hand and those ridiculous superimposed (and often watered down to mere 'for legalitie's sake/just to be sure' level) censoring laws affecting what one would consider decent on the other. But hey, this is Japan, the very home of illogic. :)
Argh, that one got long and brackets-heavy again and yet still feels somewhat incomplete.
I guess I could blame it on being in the middle of an unintended all-nighter. Maybe?
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[Post 7]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : May 8, 2007 08:49 pm
Title : Re: MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
Interesting, Marcina. I didn't realize that manga were being equated with porn by some persons. My local library has manga translations in the children's, teens', and grown-ups' sections, depending upon the titles.
Thank you, Eric, for bringing up the differences in style among manga artists. I bought manga volumes in the late '70s and early 80's when, with very few exceptions ("Barefoot Gen" and "Rose of Versailles" come to mind), you couldn't get them in English. Ozamu Tezuka's style did not look like Yasuko Aoike's, although I could see more similarities between Dr. Tezuka's and Leiji Matsumoto's style. Ditto for Ms. Aoike's style and that of Yuuho Ashibe. That's why some fans' idea that there's only one manga style annoys me almost as much as the idea that comics/manga & cartoons/anime are just "kid's stuff". :rolleyes:
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The messages has been download from Comixfan Forums at http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums at 05.10.2007 10:35:51
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THREAD : MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
Started at May 3, 2007 03:35 pm by Nick Costanzo
Visit at http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=42003
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[Post 1]
Author : Nick Costanzo
Date : May 3, 2007 03:35 pm
Title : MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/mangamerica.jpg" hspace=10 align=left border=0 alt="Mangamerica logo">By Marcina Riley, fantasyfiv@yahoo.com
A Grave Misconception
A few weeks ago I encountered a situation where an online watch group was expressing their somewhat outrage at certain manga products being sold on big name websites. This particular manga was not suited for children. Reading the comments, they made me realize just how much misconception there is with manga and anime. I thought maybe, in a vain hope, I could clarify it. I realize most of the members of this forum are probably a lot more open-minded than those on the online watch site. Regardless, it’s my rant, and I’m going to say it.
The first and biggest misconception I’ve seen is that anime automatically equals porn. I’ve seen this so often it’s not even funny. My step mom even told me the original Sailormoon was porn and that’s why it had to be edited for television. Having seen the original, it was laughable to me. Not only is it not porn, it’s meant for children. I’ve seen the stuff labeled as porn. What a lot of people don’t realize is despite being somewhat lenient by our standards; Japan actually has strict laws on what can and can’t be shown. Straight porn has to be blocked out. Oh I’ve seen really pointless attempts to censor, but they still have to do it. I admit there’s a cultural difference between what we and they see as racy, at least here in the States. I’m sure Europeans have a different point of view on this. However, it’s mainly just a cultural difference on how much is too much.
Here, cartoons tend to be really toned down, and in fact the old comic I used to review (Teen Titans Go!) was even more toned down than the original program it was based upon. I’m not going to debate whether or not that should have been done; all I will say is that it’s a matter of perceptive. I honestly think that most of the anime programs that say they are geared for a certain age group is in fact geared for that group. What I don’t understand is why it was associated with porn. I know boy anime was brought over and is still generally brought over before anime targeting females, but it’s still generally mild. Yes, there are some porn titles out there, but the number of mainstream stuff far outweighs that. They are the exception not the rule.
Another misconception is by the fans themselves. In this case, the title was drawn by western artists. The fan in question made an inaccurate remark. The remark basically boiled down to only Japanese artists can draw manga, and western artists can’t draw it at all. I’ve ran across this mentality a lot in the community. Usually, it’s by surface fans, those that have only seen a little bit of anime, or older fans, those who remember the anime styled comic rage that hit in the 90’s, I believe. I’m not saying they’re completely wrong. There has been a lot of attempts to create work without fully understanding the material they were mimicking. Unfortunately, that’s all it was, a very lame attempt to copy something. However, a lot of artist grew up on anime and manga, and even those that didn’t still can see what it’s really about.
Original Runaways artist, Adrian Alphona, is oft times noted on how manga influenced his characters look and feel. It’s not that they have big eyes and/or funny shaped heads. It’s how the characters facial features change, how they look. Basically, it’s an understanding about the medium. A lot of Tokyopop’s new artists have created really nice manga series; My Cat Loki and Fool’s Gold are two good examples. The art is beautiful and looks the way it should. Neither of these artists comes from Japan. It doesn’t change what they are drawing.
I guess it’s something that really rubs me the wrong way. Mainly because I read comics and manga, and I can tell the subtle differences between them. I understand how they both work and appreciate it. I know it’s hard for some comic book fans to find manga artists’ art believable, and likewise I think maybe many manga fans feel the same way about comics. This might help to attribute to the idea, but it’s still wrong.
No matter how you look at it, unless you’ve really experienced something, you can’t judge it fully. I think that’s the problem in both of these cases. People are taking someone else’s opinion and not forming one of their own. All I can say is that a person should at least know a little more about something before condemning it.
As I said before, I felt the need to address the topics because I feel it’s a grave error to make them. I’m not going to say what sites or anything like that, there’s a reason for anonymity, so I hope you can forgive the vagueness. Also, normally I mention titles for examples, but I’ve chosen not to so people who shouldn’t be watching them won’t try and find them. Call me old fashioned.
<center><hr width=75%></center>
Marcina Riley does not want you to literally call her old fashioned.
<center><hr width=75%></center>
The opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the writer, and are not reflective of Comixfan or its other staff in general.
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[Post 2]
Author : T. Martin
Date : May 3, 2007 06:01 pm
Title : Re: MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
Interesting article, Marcina. As someone who's read very little manga, I'd be interested in hearing from fans what they think constitutes the sylistic differences between manga and American books.
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[Post 3]
Author : Eric Travis
Date : May 3, 2007 06:59 pm
Title : Re: MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
Since Marcina started it, I'll add my own random thoughts. Muaha!
I am a huge fan of manga. Off the top of my head, I've got (in various stages of 'completeness') .hack, Ai Yori Aoshi, Amazing Agent Luna, Angel Sanctuary, Angelic Layer, Battle Royale, Battle Vixens, Berserk, Chobits, Comic Party, Deus Vitae, Escaflowne, Excel Saga, Gacha Gacha, Genshiken, Kiss Me Kill Me, My-Hime, Negima, Psychic Academy, Ragnarok, Rurouni Kenshin, Samurai Executioner, Saiyuki, Sayuki Reload, Trigun, and Yubisaki Milk Tea sitting on my bookshelf. 26 individual titles (times however many volumes)... And those are just the ones I can remember without looking. It's a broad, wide spectrum of styles and stories, but it is all 'Manga'. (Except for the Korean stuff, which is 'Manwha', and has its own typically distinctive stylings.)
One of the major distinctions between Western-style comics and Eastern-style manga is true creative control. Many times, the artist and writer of manga will be the same individual, but even when it isn't, there's a limited number of hands in the pot. Even manga-ka (creators) who have studios and employees to help them produce the work, there is one way to draw and depict a particular character.
It's not simply 'Spider-Man should be slender and nimble, and his costume looks like this'. It's 'Mark Bagley's version of Spider-Man is the corporate standard now', or Adrian Alphonse's version of the Runaways is the correct way to draw the kids.
Another aspect, and one that plays into the 'Creative Control' point, is that even the most ambitious manga titles (think: Dragonball Z or Naruto) are limited series. There is a set duration. A beginning, middle, and end, self-contained. In some rare cases, the story will continue in a new title (Dragonball -> DBZ), or will crossover within other titles by the same creative group (CLAMP's work).
The 'style' of manga is a little harder to clearly define. The big eyes-small mouth thing is typical, but it is also the cliche like 'superheroes wear tights to show off impossible muscles'. There is as much variety in manga artwork as there is in Western comics. Any comic enthusiast can tell the difference between John Romita, Jr. and Todd McFarlane.
I think one of the most subtle, but most important differences between East and West is the actual art of storytelling. It is not how the characters look, but how the story is presented. Western-style comics, generally, follow a certain kind of flow. You can anticipate when the 'cliffhanger' comes, or when the 'big reveal' happens. You know when to expect the huge two-page splash of the Helicarrier over the ocean. Likewise, manga has a flow. The way the action scenes are framed and presented. The way emotions are portrayed.
It's the story-telling aspect which, I believe, causes the friction when Western-style comics emulate the typical appearance of Eastern-style manga. The Marvel Mangaverse, for instance, was fun and a bit goofy, but it wasn't 'manga' and it wasn't 'comics'. It tried to straddle the fence, but there was obviously a missing component, and came across somewhat like Stephen King attempting to write a story in J.R.R. Tolkien's style.
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[Post 4]
Author : Alan Lynch
Date : May 4, 2007 07:57 am
Title : Re: MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
Good article, and it's definitely something I've seen around. Generalising all manga as being one thing or the other is as silly as saying all American comics are the same. The whole "manga style" boom in the 90s was incredibly misleading looking back - with more appreciation for the real thing - as it was all stereotyped big eyes and the like.
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[Post 5]
Author : STYLUSS
Date : May 4, 2007 04:42 pm
Title : Re: MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
Since the internet is breaking down the distance between artists and art of other countries there are many new coming writers and artists that know these two worlds and are able to make something that is being discriminated as having to belong to a category which is wrong to do. The only difference between the word manga or comics is the country where the word was created and they should have the same meaning for everyone. I saw Sailer Moon when i was a kid and at the time everyone reacted badly and when dbz came everyone saw everything and loved it. There are good and bad as in comics and animated series. Just watch and if you don't like it don't flame other people who actually like it.
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[Post 6]
Author : twincast
Date : May 8, 2007 03:06 pm
Title : Re: MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
No matter how you look at it, unless you’ve really experienced something, you can’t judge it fully. I think that’s the problem in both of these cases. People are taking someone else’s opinion and not forming one of their own. All I can say is that a person should at least know a little more about something before condemning it.
Or to quote a great German comedian: "Democracy is often misunderstood. You are allowed to have an opinion, you do not need to have one. - If you don't know anything, just shut up." - Dieter Nuhr
Anyway, while I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said, I have long given up trying to do anything about it on the mighty interweb. "I won't touch no manga" and "****** fake manga" fans are generally about as immature as it gets - like Transformers fan level immature - and that's a seriously scary place to wallow in for any extended length of time.
As for America vs. Japan vs. Europe ... I'm not sure how the situation is in the countries with a somewhat strong church, but Europe as a whole is kind of famous for not censoring people publically stripping or unintentionally showing certain body parts (outside of certain timeframes, essentially the timespan of the (former) afteroon talkshows). As for what's considered inappropriate (especially) in the comic medium - it varies, but all could be put on a scale between America and Japan (I'm ranting already, so I'll stop here), pixelation not considered.
Japan keeps baffling me with a very nonchalant attitude to the whole topic (to the degree I'm kind of envious because His Mighty Noodliness help me, I can't read or even browse through pervy stuff in public) on the one hand and those ridiculous superimposed (and often watered down to mere 'for legalitie's sake/just to be sure' level) censoring laws affecting what one would consider decent on the other. But hey, this is Japan, the very home of illogic. :)
Argh, that one got long and brackets-heavy again and yet still feels somewhat incomplete.
I guess I could blame it on being in the middle of an unintended all-nighter. Maybe?
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[Post 7]
Author : Ann Nichols
Date : May 8, 2007 08:49 pm
Title : Re: MANGAMERICA #21: A GRAVE MISCONCEPTION
Interesting, Marcina. I didn't realize that manga were being equated with porn by some persons. My local library has manga translations in the children's, teens', and grown-ups' sections, depending upon the titles.
Thank you, Eric, for bringing up the differences in style among manga artists. I bought manga volumes in the late '70s and early 80's when, with very few exceptions ("Barefoot Gen" and "Rose of Versailles" come to mind), you couldn't get them in English. Ozamu Tezuka's style did not look like Yasuko Aoike's, although I could see more similarities between Dr. Tezuka's and Leiji Matsumoto's style. Ditto for Ms. Aoike's style and that of Yuuho Ashibe. That's why some fans' idea that there's only one manga style annoys me almost as much as the idea that comics/manga & cartoons/anime are just "kid's stuff". :rolleyes:
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The messages has been download from Comixfan Forums at http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums at 05.10.2007 10:35:51