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View Full Version : COMICS FOR DUMMIES #18: COUNTDOWN TO BREAKDOWNS


raul grau
Apr 13, 2005, 04:18 pm
<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/logos/cfdlogo.jpg" hspace=10 align=left border=0 alt="Comics For Dummies logo">By Raul Grau, RJacknite@aol.com

Countdown to Breakdowns

Before they were Formerly Known as... the Justice League, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, and the other BWAH-HA-HA-HA'ers were known as... well, they were the Justice League. Eighteen years ago, a legendary mega-crossover (the best kind of crossover) reduced League membership to one lone Martian, but also sowed the character-rich seeds for the next generation of World's Greatest Heroes. This new, internationaly-minded team endured for five years, before slowly being retired to wherever it is that less popular comic book characters go between cameo appearances. So why is it that the past year has been filled with mega-events featuring these forgotten heroes? And, more importantly, why do they seem to be on the losing side of these mega-events?

Their story begins with Legends, the aforementioned mega-crossover which cemented the unquestionable and enduring heroic stature of folks like Cosmic Boy and Warlord (you know, he was like Conan, minus the charm). In a set of events completely unrelated to the main story, the members of the Justice League of America were hunted down by handsome androids, and were each either killed outright or convinced to seek a robust retirement plan. Had this been a more popular incarnation of the League, things might have turned out a bit differently, but the androids were decimating the 'Detroit' League (so named for their geography and shoddy workmanship), so the world was happy to be without Vibe (like Rictor, just with added breakdancing). Martian Manhunter was the last Leaguer standing, and rejoined the storyline of Legends, already in progress.

Doctor Fate, usually not the friendliest Lord of Order, was busy snatching up heroes he barely knew for an ultimate confrontation with Glorious Godfrey, who might actually be the most effeminately named fellow on Apokolips. The seemingly random grouping actually succeeding in their struggle, with help from an uninvited Martian, and Fate suggested that they remain together (the same formula had worked before, of course, as 'Fate snatching up random heroes' has retroactively become the origin of the Justice Society of America, so it was not a bad suggestion). Superman, Flash, Beast Boy, and Wonder Woman all declined (so, basically, just about everyone already featured in a popular series), but the remaining seven would go on to form the nucleus of the (location-free) Justice League... and I bet you thought that joke only worked for the (adjectiveless) X-Men.

Whereas other incarnations of the League (before and since) have consisted of the most popular heroes available, Keith Giffen and J.M. DeMatteis (as plotter and scripter, respectively) featured a JL that was more diverse and truly representational of the DC Universe (or I'm reading too much into the lineup, and their names were pulled from a hat... it could go either way). From the former Earth-1, there was Martian Manhunter (lone League hold-out), Batman (oh, you know who he is), Guy Gardner (not the Greatest of the Green Lanterns), Mister Miracle (the most human of the Fourth World bunch), and his diminutive sidekick Oberon (like Puck, but with less hockey). From Earth-2, Fate and Black Canary (though, sadly, now fishnet-free). Throw in Captain Marvel (formerly of Earth-S) and Blue Beetle (of the recently purchased Charlton line), and you thank Crisis for allowing these nine to cohabitate on the same planet.

Speaking of Crisis, the first two recruits were Doctor Light (not the rape-happy one, the female one, who made her first appearance during that Infinite Earths brouhaha) and Booster Gold (the financially astute time-traveler, hailed as DC's first post-Crisis hero). Of course, neither of those recruits were actually recruited by the League themselves, but a certain billionaire who was operating without the express written consent of the Justice League.

While Maxwell Lord cannot take credit for assembling this League (well, he could... and probably would, if you asked him), he did try his best to manipulate them to greatness. Lord was first introduced as just another billionaire industrialist with a power trip (like Bruce Wayne, but without the night job), but his story proved to be much more convoluted... I mean, interesting. Max, it turned out, was himself being manipulated by a sentient Information Retrieval Unit from New Genesis, whose original purpose (I assume) was to retrieve information, but who had evolved with a 'save humanity from itself' mindset. To accomplish this noble goal, the computer choose the Justice League to serve as the guardians of the planet... oh, and it began creating robotic duplicates of world leaders. It should also be noted that Max first encountered said computer while spelunking with his close friend and mentor, whom he planned to murder... that Max, what a cut-up.

With the ends sure to justify the means, Max covertly recruited Doctor Light for a team he was not at all involved in, and then sponsored a terrorist attack on the United Nations, which the League (luckily) foiled. Since it worked so well the first time, Max next recruited Booster, and staged an attack from the Royal Flush Gang to give Gold the opportunity he needed to prove himself to his new comrades. Then Max successfully secured United Nations approval for the League, after public opinion was swayed by their defeat of a space-based death ray, which the computer just so happened to be in control of... noticing a pattern, yet? By the way, upon receiving international status, Captain Atom (the walking nuclear meltdown) and Rocket Red #7 (the pinko commie) were shoe-horned onto the team, but Red was soon revealed to be a Manhunter (remember them?), a race of sentient computers totally unrelated to that other sentient computer.

During that bit of android anarchy, Max was shot repeatedly by a Manhunter agent (you should never trust sentient computers), but his computer pal kept him alive (awww... what a nice sentient computer). At the risk of losing his own life (since repair work done by a sentient computer is apparently dependant on the computer remaining sentient), Max finally rebelled, smashing his accomplice into microchip-sized pieces, and inadvertently reopening six bullet holes within his chest. That selfless act was, of course, completely unrelated to the minor matter of the Justice League (International flavor) finally figuring out that they had been manipulated by said sentient computer (and, technically, by Max) for the better part of a year. Sacrificing himself for the greater good struck a chord with the other Leaguers, and Max was allowed to remain on as their administrative big bossman, but now completely free of sentient computer inflences. You know, that all worked out better than even Max could have planned... hmmm...

Anyway, the loss of their inorganic manipulator was not the only membership change to strike the League. Doctor Light had long since quit (seems she did not care much for being manipulated... so she sure picked the wrong team), and Rocket Red #4 replaced Rocket Red #7 (and he was much more popular than his predecessor, simply by virtue of not being a killer android). The staunchly conservative Hawkman and his amazingly understanding wife Hawkwoman rejoined the League... or they didn't, who knows with their continuity (you know, someone should write a column about them... hmmm...). Green Flame (the fiery Latina) and Ice Maiden (her more temperate ally) sought prestige and a paycheck with the League (boy, were they surprised), filling the feminine vacuum left by the departure of Black Canary (who was off dealing with the small issue of being raped and tortured over in Longbow Hunters). After an aborted alien Invasion!, Fire (as the Flame took to calling herself) received a full-body burn, and even Max had his metagene activated, receiving the perfect power for a manipulative businessman... the ability to push people mentally into doing his bidding (because money does not always do the job).

With newfound power and newfound recruits, Max finally took the International League International, with the founding of the Justice League Europe. Among the heroes shipped across the pond were Captain Atom (coming down from the high of being Supreme Commander of the Earth forces during Invasion!), Rocket Red (Paris is closer to Russia, after all), Animal Man (former Forgotten Hero, turned Grant Morrison plaything), Flash (Wally West, during his lecherous days), Power Girl (unsure about her own origin, but still pretty powerful), Metamorpho (the Elemental Outsider), Elongated Man (the rubbery detective, and his ultra-forgiving wife, Sue Dibny. Oh, I almost forgot, Wonder Woman was also a member... for about the length of time it took you to read this sentence... after that, she was lone gone.

You would assume that with two active branches of the Justice League protecting the planet, the planet, as a whole, would be a safer place, but (strangely enough) a new ongoing title seemed to bring on new ongoing problems. In a very climatic and monochromatic battle with the Gray Man, Power Girl received a power downgrade (leaving her as less of a Superman clone, but still at around Rogue level). With Grant Morrison actively trying to drive him insane in his solo book, Animal Man resigned, but Crimson Fox (two seductive French women in one busty costume) amply filled the animal-themed role. After an invasion of Marvel-esque characters almost resulted in planetary destruction (something Marvel-esque characters are quite good at), Blue Jay (shrinking plus wings equals Wasp) and the Silver Sorceress (unlike the Scarlet Witch, she shied away from actually wearing silver) joined the European contingent. And then there was the little matter of Power Girl's unnamed pet cat being a unintentional spy for an information broker, but that almost goes without saying... you know how cats are.

Back in the states, Blue Beetle stabbed Max (and Oberon too, but Max mattered more), after being activated as a sleeper agent for the Queen Bee (who wisely avoided going for a bee theme in her costuming... stingers tend to look silly). One too many people then went poking around in his mind, and Beetle ended up comatose for an issue or two. The second Doctor Fate (the less powerful, girly one), Orion (the least jovial New God ever), and Lightray (the least heterosexual New God ever) all joined for a short while, as did the Huntress, though she might have been slightly coerced by the mental manipulations of Max... she was also slightly miffed (in a crossbow-waving sort of way) when she found out. Booster Gold resigned (to be next seen with the higher-paying, though lower-profile Conglomerate), and Mister Miracle was killed, mourned, then later revealed to have been a robotic duplicate of himself, but the real Scott Free resigned soon after anyway. L-Ron (the sarcastic robo-assistant) and General Glory (think Captain America, with extra anachronistic patriotism) also enlisted in the League, but they picked a terrible time, because the parade float of Justice was about to breakdown.

Breakdowns is, quite probably, the longest crossover to ever take place between only two titles, and, quite likely, the only crossover to run for 16 (out of 15) parts. Everything that could possibly go wrong with the League was happening, twice a month. Max was shot (again) and replaced by the exceptionally evil Rolf Heimlich (and it takes a lot of work to be more evil than Max). The Queen Bee (still buzzing about), Despero (no longer the three-eyed purple chess player, now the three-eyed purple killing machine), and Lobo (like Wolverine, but with an even better healing factor) all attacked. Dreamslayer (like Dormmamu, but in tight pants) took control of Max, creating his own army of Marvel-esque androids and brain-washed Leaguers, before Silver Sorceress made that ultimate heroic sacrifice to stop him (like Jean Grey, but more permanently). New members came, old members quit, the whole organization hung on the brink of destruction, but then, in the final panel of the final Giffen/DeMatteis issue, Max returned to put everything right again. It was an amazing moment... too bad there had to be a next issue.

For 95 total issues (not counting assorted annuals and specials), the Giffen League had been a different kind of superhero team. Sure, they fought bloodthirsty aliens and interdimensional mages, they just had a better sense of humor about the whole spandexed lifestyle. They sometimes had fun, were usually quite funny, but they were never fools, and somewhere, in the month between that last Giffen issue and the next installment, that was completely forgotten. Suddenly, they were a pack of ineffectual buffoons who could not even stand up against a killer wind-up toy, and had no further interest in heroism. Then came the less-than-spectacular Justice League Spectacular, in which Max bungled one of his clandestine attacks (Max never bungles clandestine attacks), and the League of Idiots needed Superman, Hal Jordan, and Aquaman (of all people) to rescue them. The bigger names spearheaded the new Leagues, and slowly began pushing out the few remaining Giffen hold-outs... with a little help from Doomsday.

The Justice League had handled Despero (twice, in fact), and he was a more intelligent and, therefore, more dangerous unstoppable killing machine than Doomsday, but the walking plot device had a date with Superman, and cannon fodder were needed to prove just how strong he really was. Doomie left Fire powerless, Booster powerless, and Beetle comatose (again), before making his way to an historic rendezvous with the Man of Steel. Ice (the slightly abbreviated Ice Maiden) had become a naive, love-struck child, unable to function in society (this was the woman who once decked Guy Gardner?... though, to be fair, who didn't deck Guy Gardner?), and the death of Superman hit her even harder than it did Lois Lane. Ice went on to become ultra-powered, ultra-crazy, and then ultra-dead, in the same battle that cost Booster an arm and a working cardiovascular system. Max got cancer, died, became an evil cyborg, and then began playing around with some world-conquering conspiracy types, who chose to model themselves after playing cards. Both Crimson Foxes died (one of them died twice), both Fates died, Guy died, Metamorpho went inert, Power Girl went immaculately pregnant, and so on it went for over a decade... the smartest thing Huntress ever did was to forget that she was ever a part of that team.

That brings us to the past year... and what a odd year it has been for fans of the Giffen League. On the one hand, the former Leaguers had not been this heavily featured in almost fifteen years... though, on the other hand, they do seem to be dying even more rapidly now than they did when they were virtually forgotten. The critically-acclaimed Superman/Batman series (which filled the long-standing need for more Superman and Batman titles, but did it with only one book) featured the noble sacrifice of Breach... err... I mean, Captain Atom. The critically-acclaimed Identity Crisis opened with Sue Dibny (the sane member of the JLE) being accidentally murdered by one of her closest friends. The not-yet-critically-acclaimed (but certainly inexpensive) Countdown to Infinite Crisis kept that trend alive with Blue Beetle being... well, not accidentally, more maliciously... being maliciously murdered by one of his closest friends, an 'even more evil than he used to be' Maxwell Lord.

I have no objection to Max being the leader of a clandestine, international terrorist network... after all, Max often did that sort of thing. I can understand Max developing a bitter hatred of all metahumans... despite the little matter of him being a metahuman himself. I can accept Max sending a lighting bolt down from the sky, leaving Booster Gold in critical condition... if I could shoot lighting bolts from the sky, I would show my friends too. I can even wrap my brain around Max spilling the brains of his old buddy Ted Kord on his nice new, clandestine floor... you never let the hero go after explaining your plans in grand detail. However, what really bothered me about Countdown was the retroactive implication that Max had been purposely keeping the League ineffective... Maxwell Lord, in case you don't recall, was the man who lied, cheated, and stole to make the League as powerful and prestigious as it possibly could be.

So, in the end, why has the last year featured a culling of the ranks of the Giffen League? In an odd way, I blame Formerly Known as... the Justice League. Before Giffen, DeMatteis, and Maguire reunited to deliver six issues of nostalgic fun, most comic book readers had forgotten that heroes could be interesting without being dour. Suddenly, Sue, Max, Beetle, and the others were popular again, with a new cult following to join the one that had lain dormant for so long... which gave DC the perfect opportunity to start killing them off. Here you have characters with long histories (to draw upon), loyal fans (to buy the books), and the stigma of occasionally being funny (to utterly crush), so that makes them the perfect victims.

If you read Countdown and Identity Crisis (Superman/Batman to a lesser extent), you will see the most heroic, most noble, most character-true, most interesting representations of these characters to appear in nearly fifteen years (not counting Formerly and its sequel)... the real shame is that these characters have to be mere moments away from death for another writer to take them seriously.

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Raul Grau is convinced that he has already solved the mystery of the upcoming Infinite Crisis epic crossover. He chooses not to ruin the surprise twist for everyone, but he did mention that it will involve Booster Gold and a wood chipper.

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The opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the writer, and are not reflective of Comixfan or its other staff in general.

AngelinLeather
Apr 13, 2005, 04:56 pm
This is an excellent article. I thought only Marvel pulled this nonsensical crap with their fans.

Blessed
Apr 13, 2005, 04:57 pm
Great collum!!
I loved JLI/JLE.
I'm sorry that most of the crew dies/goes insane/etc.
I'm almost sure that Booster will die in Infinite, but hell if a death of a character is well written that i can live with that.(Haven't read Countdown but i hear good things 'bout it).
I'm gonna re-read now odschool JLI :)
Cheers mate!!

Dylan McKay
Apr 13, 2005, 05:24 pm
Kick ass article, albeit a kick ass article that pours salt into an open wound.


I have no objection to Max being the leader of a clandestine, international terrorist network... after all, Max often did that sort of thing. I can understand Max developing a bitter hatred of all metahumans... despite the little matter of him being a metahuman himself. I can accept Max sending a lighting bolt down from the sky, leaving Booster Gold in critical condition... if I could shoot lighting bolts from the sky, I would show my friends too. I can even wrap my brain around Max spilling the brains of his old buddy Ted Kord on his nice new, clandestine floor... you never let the hero go after explaining your plans in grand detail. However, what really bothered me about Countdown was the retroactive implication that Max had been purposely keeping the League ineffective... Maxwell Lord, in case you don't recall, was the man who lied, cheated, and stole to make the League as powerful and prestigious as it possibly could be.


I agree with you, except for the one thing I bolded. I found that to be a flying leap for the character that, when given a perfect oppertunity to explain, he fails miserably. I can't see a better oppertunity to explain than his sales pitch to a former friend and potential high ranking member. And yet, the explanation blows Chunks. (Chunks being the name of Max's dog.)

QBBEADLE
Apr 13, 2005, 06:04 pm
Another great column Raul. It's good to see this all from another perspective. I never really read Justice League back in the Giffen, Demattis days so I don't have a whole lot of attachment to the characters. I've always enjoyed them in their appearances in other DC books I read (especially Booster and Beetle) but they weren't all that important to me. I heard so many good things about Formerly that I picked it up and loved it instantly. The current JLA Classified arc is great too.

Like you said, it's a shame that these characters are just now starting being written well again only to be killed off one by one. I really hope they keep Booster around longer, but I just have this vision of him sacrificing himself to stop Max or whoever is behind Infinite Crisis. It's almost as if DC has set themselves up to the point that if they don't kill someone off, they're not living up their own hype. While I'm sure this is going to be a very interesting summer for DC fans, I just feel it would be better if there wasn't a sense of impending death hanging over every B or C-list character.

Mitch Brown
Apr 14, 2005, 07:07 am
Brilliant stuff (as always) Raul.

As I've stated elsewhere, I really am in two minds on Countdown and Infinite Crisis. For all the reasons that yourself and Dylan have stated a big part of me leans towards hating it, but the fact is that the books have been so well written and intriguing (if you ignore the character inconsistencies and retcons) that I can't help but be drawn into the event.

It'd be damn easy to label Infinite Crisis as yet another pointless maxi-crossover promising "huge changes" etc and dismiss it. But the thing is....Identity Crisis (up until the lacklustre final issue) and Countdown make for some damn good comics.

I'm holding on to the belief that the seeming "darkening of the DCU" is temporary. "It's always darkest before dawn" and all that. I have my own theories on where DC are headed with this one and I think there is a lot of potential here for DC to establish a fantastic new status quo. I can't help but shake the feeling that this is building towards Grant Morrison's oft-whispered vision of a "living universe", and knowing Morrison's love for the mythic, Golden Age era of superheroism I don't think that a Morrison-designed DCU 3.0 would be such a bad thing.

Of course, perhaps he has nothing to do with this and we're just going to end up with a Marvel-style DCU at the end. If this is the case I'll be sorely disappointed, because the last thing comics needs right now is yet another ultra "realistic" and "dark" universe.

With any luck, the Charlton characters that are seemingly being killed off wholesale will make some form of return, perhaps on their own Earth if speculation that the multiverse will return at the end of Infinite Crisis proves to be correct. Even better would be if Giffen and DeMatteis were given their own JLI Earth to play with....

Thorn
Apr 14, 2005, 09:52 am
Yeah, it's all a little bizarre to me that they chose to pick on the Geffen League with Countdown. I thought his recent "I Can't Belive It's Not The JL" mini series and storyline in current JLA: Classified was selling well and popular. Seems they've now gutted it like a fish! Does seem like a Marvely kind of thing to do...

I almost forgot: Awesome article! Very well thought through! :clap:

Ryan Day
Apr 14, 2005, 11:12 am
However, what really bothered me about Countdown was the retroactive implication that Max had been purposely keeping the League ineffective... Maxwell Lord, in case you don't recall, was the man who lied, cheated, and stole to make the League as powerful and prestigious as it possibly could be.

That's one of my big problems, too. I could buy Max as a villain - wave enough money and power in front of him, and he'd probably do just about anything. I'm not sure why anyone would really want Max Lord, Supervillain, but that's probably beside the point.

It's this idea that he's always been a supervillain that's silly. I don't understand the need to lay on this ultra-secret ulterior motivation to years of stories - a motivation that would seem to be pretty implausible given Max's prominence in the JLI.

raul grau
Apr 14, 2005, 01:58 pm
Thank you to everyone for the very kind words. This was definitely one of my favorite CFDs to work on, mainly because it forced me to reread every issue of JL/I/A and JLE, and that process is far more enjoyable than rereading every Marvel and DC annual from 1993, let me tell you. :)

QBBEADLE, if you enjoyed Formerly and the current Classified arc, then I highly recommend digging up the original run. The humor and characterization were just as sharp twenty years ago, and I'm sure you are missing out on a few in-jokes, so reading the Justice League might even make Formerly funnier for you. :D

Kick ass article, albeit a kick ass article that pours salt into an open wound.Thank you, Dylan, I try my hardest to make every CFD both engaging and enraging. ;)

I agree with you, except for the one thing I bolded. I found that to be a flying leap for the character that, when given a perfect oppertunity to explain, he fails miserably.Well, Max has sent a paramilitary strike force after superheroes before, so that portion is plausible to me. Of course, a bitter hatred of metas takes the idea several steps further, but Max has always had leanings towards control, so taking down those who step out of line makes (some) sense.

Plus, and I'm not a psychologist, but Max might hate all metahumans, because he secretly hates himself... think about it. :)

I'm holding on to the belief that the seeming "darkening of the DCU" is temporary. "It's always darkest before dawn" and all that.Mitch, you poor naive bastard. ;)

It's this idea that he's always been a supervillain that's silly. I don't understand the need to lay on this ultra-secret ulterior motivation to years of stories - a motivation that would seem to be pretty implausible given Max's prominence in the JLI.Yeah, that is the part that baffles me too. Maybe... just maybe... with a telepath in house, Max forced himself to think the part of helpful benefactor (explaining ninety-five issues worth of thought balloons), though opening branches all around the world and recruiting the biggest names he could would make this the least effectual case of ineffectuality ever. :frust:

- Raul

Mitch Brown
Apr 14, 2005, 03:24 pm
Mitch, you poor naive bastard. ;)


Probably, yeah.

:kitty:

Well, there's always All-Star. All-Star JLI anyone?

Dylan McKay
Apr 14, 2005, 05:43 pm
Well, Max has sent a paramilitary strike force after superheroes before, so that portion is plausible to me. Of course, a bitter hatred of metas takes the idea several steps further, but Max has always had leanings towards control, so taking down those who step out of line makes (some) sense.

Plus, and I'm not a psychologist, but Max might hate all metahumans, because he secretly hates himself... think about it. :)


But he's proven in the past that he has more power when he manipulates metas.

And it leads to the question, is Green Lantern a meta?

darkcypherlad
Apr 14, 2005, 07:17 pm
Raul,

Great article. It seems to me that DC is deliberately "darkening" their universe to catch up to their Marvelous Competition in sales and publicity. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but is it just a coincidence that DC is launching both "Countdown," which everyone involved claims will change the DC world forever, and the All-Star versions of DC's heroes, which promises a back-to-the-basics- approach that is now all but gone in the regular DC titles? Just a thought...

About Giffen's JL/JLI/JLWhatever: I agree with everything you've said. However, I must defend the brief period when Giffen left and Dan Jurgens took over. Yes, the League was reduced to a team of buffoons, but they were screw-ups long before Giffen left. That was one of the main reasons why I liked Giffen's run: he showed this team as inherently flawed (although not the brainwashing and lobotomizing kind of weakness that Meltzer would later introduce to the title and the DCU in "Identity Crisis") and comically weak. They could barely hold it together because internal team strife (which almost always started with Guy Gardner) threatened to rip them apart. Jurgens simply continued this line of thought and developed it further. For the dozen or so issues in which they existed, the Superman-led JLA (with Blue, Gold, Guy, Ice, Fire, Maxima, and Bloodwynd) was both captivating and promising. If Doomsday hadn't arrived, I truly believe that the title (and the team itself) would've developed into a team that fought tooth and nail to reclaim the respect that they had lost through years of petty infighting.

Now, after Jurgens left, the title truly went to hell, with poor writing and art. The whole Ice saga was terrible, and when they killed her off, I just about had it with the title. Later, I picked up the rest via the 10 cent bin box at my local comic book store, and the title just got worse. Some golden oldies (like Wonder Woman and the Golden Age Flash) came back into the fold, but it just didn't matter.

When Morrison revived the JLA, I was initially pleased to see the team and the title back on top. Yet after awhile, I missed Giffen's (and Jurgens!) flawed take on the team. And yes, I missed the banter between Booster Gold and Blue Beetle, Ice's wallflower vulnerability, Fire's tempestuous personality, and Guy's...well, I missed Guy too. The League had grown too big for them, and they were cast aside.

And now, like you said, each one is being brought back only to be killed off. I fully expect to see Fire and Booster perish this year and heck, maybe Ralph too. I always liked DC because they respected their second tier characters and generally resisted the compulsion (unlike Marvel) to kill them off to sweeten a major crossover or storyline. With "Identity Crisis" and now "Countdown," it appears they've caved into temptation and have enacted something they'll regret a few years down the line.

ultimateX
Apr 15, 2005, 12:15 am
good read. im a new dc fan, following superman/batman and teen titans. the stories that dc is producing is compelling so far. the characters are realistic, more human, if i must say. while marvel has been doing this for a long time, it is definitely good that dc is catching up with them. i dont need to read comic book stories about invasions and that sort of story arc every time i buy these comics. sometimes, what matters is the character development of these heroes because there comes a time when the reader needs to identify with them.

tormented_spawn
Apr 15, 2005, 01:56 am
WHen it comes to who produces better quality and more diversity (yes, I heard what happened with Humanoids and 2000A.D., still...) than Marvels the one that needs to catch up. Where's Marvel answer to Watchmen, Sandman, heck recently, how about Ex-Machina, 100 Bullets, oh I could go on. Btw, I read both Marvel & DC as well as Image, Indies, etc. but can't ignore one produces more goods than the other. :mwahaha: I'm evil...

Dylan McKay
Apr 15, 2005, 02:12 am
Well, currently, Image is whooping both Marvel and DC in terms of quality...

tormented_spawn
Apr 15, 2005, 02:17 am
Da, especially with Armor X for Image.

Dylan McKay
Apr 15, 2005, 02:21 am
Da, especially with Armor X for Image.
:nonono:

tormented_spawn
Apr 15, 2005, 02:32 am
tee hee, ok, read #2, ahh! cop out, should of blast 'em... who has better quality in comics between DC and Image, for me... err, well, I have to go for DC, okay, if DC doesn't have Vertigo and WS in its ranks then Image for sure...

Dylan McKay
Apr 15, 2005, 02:49 am
I don't even think my shop ordered #2...

tormented_spawn
Apr 15, 2005, 02:53 am
probably so many people pre-ordered it and not enough copies to be put on the shelves...

Have to say great column, Raul. All this Crisis stuff nowdays just a way to diminish the ranks of B & C grade characters...

Anand Khatri
Apr 15, 2005, 02:56 am
I don't even think anybody ordered it at all at my store.

raul grau
Apr 15, 2005, 03:38 am
darkcypherlad (love the name ;)), thank you, and I agree that fun is continuing to slip away from mainstream superhero stories. However, I obviously disagree with your assessment of the Jurgens League.

All heroes are outclassed by their villains (they have to be, or else the battles would not be interesting), the Giffen League were just the first to admit it publicly. With Jurgens, they became utterly unable to handle any threat, without Superman (or Maxima, or Bloodwynd) stepping in to save them. Then Doomsday came along, and removed the former Leaguers entirely. As a Ray fan, I do derive some enjoyment from that run, but the Giffen Leaguers became noticeably absent from active duty.

Plus, he turned Ice into a love-struck puppy. She was never a wallflower before he came along... maybe occasionally naive, but still dynamic and readily able to defend herself. Take another look at those issues, and count just how much of her dialogue was devoted to being flighty. :)

good read... the stories that dc is producing is compelling so far. the characters are realistic, more human, if i must say. while marvel has been doing this for a long time, it is definitely good that dc is catching up with them.Thank you, ultimate, though I do disagree with your statement that DC is currently playing catch-up with Marvel in terms of realism or character. In fact, I disagree with that opinion so strongly that I wrote <a href="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=29566" target="_blank">an entire column</a> on that very topic... ;)

- Raul

mikeyt
Apr 15, 2005, 08:18 pm
great article. fun, and educational! infotainment! i am one of those people who hadn't heard of these characters until formerly known as... so this was cool

but captain atom is dead? i thought at the end of that arc they said that he hadn't really been killed and that he was transported somewhere safe, and was still alive with a snazzy new costume? or did i just make that up?

Jon Hancock
Apr 26, 2005, 05:10 pm
Good stuff chief.

Apart from the unwarranted Guy bashing :( :glguy: look at him! How can you hate such a cutey.

Ken Boehm
Apr 26, 2005, 06:19 pm
I agree with darkcypherlad about the Jurgens run. Those were some of the first DC issues I ever picked up, and I liked not only the stories but the art as well (you can't beat Jurgen's early 90's stuff, it's classic). It was a very needed injection of more action over more humor/goofing off that the KG/JDM JLA was except towards the end. Which isn't a bad thing, but a change of pace is always good now and then.