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View Full Version : REEDING INTO THINGS #37: WHY COMIC BOOK FANS COMPLAIN SO MUCH


Joel Phillips
Oct 19, 2004, 03:09 pm
<img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/images/columns/ritlogo.jpg" align=left width=115 height=100 border=0 alt="Reeding Into Things">By Joel Phillips

Why Comic Book Fans Complain So Much


What’s the #1 activity amongst comic book fans? For most, I’d say it’s discussing your favorite comics/series/stories/characters. What’s #2? Complaining about why today’s comics aren’t as good as the stuff you reminisced about in #1. And of those two activities, the complaining is the one we’re all really good at.

We ALL do it, especially around a message board. There’s not a single person who posts on this site who has never complained about anything comic-related. Many people don’t post anything but. And nobody ever thinks this is the best time ever to be a comic book fan… there’s always some era that’s bigger and better, and boy how it sucks for us to be here and now instead of there and then.

All that having been said, we all read comics TODAY. Presumably we enjoy something about something currently being produced, or we wouldn’t be here. This, of course, doesn’t account for people who hate all the comics they buy, but keep buying them anyway… I’ve come to the conclusion that if you do that for a few years you should eventually outgrow it, and if you don’t then you’re obviously one of the special people and should just excuse yourself while the grown-ups talk.

So what makes us so hard to please? Why do we have such an easy time seeing the negative, but such a hard time seeing the positive? Who or what is to blame? I present the following theories:

Possibility #1: We’re Reading the Wrong Comics. A pretty easy conclusion to draw considering the wide amount of material available in comicdom. Saying there are no comics that appeal to you today is like saying there are no movies that appeal to you… I suppose it is possible, but what kind of warped ass, super-specialized taste do you have that you can’t find ANYTHING you enjoy?

Similar to possibility #1 is…

Possibility #2: We’re STILL Reading the Wrong Comics. Or, more accurately, we’re still reading the same comics, and they aren’t right for us anymore. Take my abandonment of my once-beloved superheroes as an example. Comic companies today are, by their own admission, gearing their superhero properties towards younger readers being hooked in by outside uses of superhero licenses (cartoons, movies, action figures, etc.). Many of the stories are intentionally written down to a younger reader’s level, and many writers recycle old storylines intentionally because what worked once can be made to work again, particularly when your readership doesn’t know the difference. All of these things point to one unavoidable truth: publishers are no longer creating superhero comics with readers like me as the target audience. Which is fine, but it explains perfectly why I stopped reading them, and why I was right to do so.

Let me turn into a commercial for a second… Do you remember a time when your favorite superhero comics seemed to be hitting it out of the park with every issue? Do you long for an earlier period when stories seemed fresher, more fun or more exciting? Do you want to reclaim that sense of wonderment, excitement and free-wheeling fun comics used to hold for you?

Then why are you still reading the same thing you were reading when you were twelve? Do you like the same music you liked at twelve? The same movies? The same books or TV shows? People change, and mediums change. I’m not the guy I was ten years ago, and comics aren’t what they were ten years ago. I’m not saying better or worse, just different. And when you are changing, the comics are changing, and the world is changing, you can’t expect everything to change together but the relationship to stay the same. Sure, maybe for some of you, for some comics, things manage to grow in exactly the way you want and the relationship does stay largely the same. But that’s incredibly rare, and I doubt you’re one of the people who are so often disappointed.

Possibility #3: We’re Grading on an Unfair Curve. Criticism never ends with something being bad, it’s always about how bad it is compared to something else, usually something past. The problem with this is that our memories lie to us all the time. Things we liked a few years ago become legends by virtue of their age rather than their objective quality. Have you re-read some of the favorites of your youth recently? Ever surprised at how badly some of that stuff holds up?

Consider the ever-popular X-fan whine “Claremont’s current run isn’t as good as his original run”. Well… what if it is? Maybe Claremont is as good as he ever was, only now we’ve lived so long with the myth of the original Claremont stories that we can’t separate the work from the myth. Maybe the only difference between current Claremont issues and old Claremont issues is that we are seeing modern issues without the filter of age and nostalgia, and we’re used to these kinds of stories so they no longer feel new. Maybe, if we were somehow able to view the past stories in a totally objective manner, with new eyes, we’d have the same opinion of them as we do of current Claremont stuff.

Which is not to say we would dislike old Claremont stories if we weren’t subject to nostalgia… I don’t know, that’s something everyone has to decide for themselves. But maybe the reason nothing ever seems as good as it used to be isn’t because things have gotten so bad, but because nostalgia has tricked us into thinking things were better than they were, making the “decent” seem “good” or the “good” seem “legendary”.

Possibility #4: We’re Malcontents. It must have crossed your mind at some point. I know it’s crossed the minds of any comic book creator who spends sufficient time around fans. Maybe we’re hard to please because… we’re hard to please. Maybe we’re just really uptight and naturally inclined towards bitterness. It’s entirely possible that comic book fans are just a nasty bunch of human beings, always finding fault, incapable of appreciating anything on its own.

It’s a possibility, but I don’t buy it. For one thing we praise the hell out of the olden days, so we must have something in us that is capable of seeing and appreciating the positive. Plus I don’t think there’s anything inherent in comics that anyone who is a fan of them is automatically turned into an opinionated prick… all evidence to that effect notwithstanding.

Possibility #5: Our Expectations Are Too High. Maybe this has to do with the old nostalgia factor, or maybe it’s the fact that our generation has seen the price of comics nearly double in our lifetime, but perhaps we just expect too much from our comics. I think some of this might come from the amount of time we spend discussing comics… maybe we analyze them so much that they lose their magic, making our already high expectations that much harder to live up to.

On the other hand…

Possibility #6: Our Expectations Are Too Low. Maybe we don’t expect enough from our comics. It seems that often times being “fans” has kept us “loyal” and reading bad comics for a long time. When you do that long enough you gradually lower the bar, and the resulting malaise could be our subconscious wondering why the hell we’re still buying this junk.

Possibility #7: Our Expectations Are Ridiculous. Or maybe the real problem is simply that we want stupid things out of our comics. We’re fans of such and such a character and so we always want them around, even when writers have nothing to say with them and their presence becomes detrimental to the story. We’re fans of the idea of such and such a pair of characters as a couple, so we expect writers to force them together no matter how unnecessary or inappropriate to the story it may be. We figure out the way we like things, and we want writers to write to that and preserve that… but try to keep things somehow interesting and fresh at the same time.

Maybe the comics are less to blame than we are for asking more of writers than we have a right to… namely, asking them for anything more specific than the best possible story.

And if none of those float your boat as possible reasons why we complain so much about comics, how about this…

Possibility #8: Comics Today Suck. There’s always the possibility that we think comics suck because… they do. Maybe our demands are perfectly reasonable, all we want is a good story, we’re reasonable people who are capable of seeing the good in things, and we’re not comparing anything to anything else. Maybe it’s just our considered opinion that comics today aren’t very good.

I think each of these plays their role. I don’t think we’re all malcontents, though some of us clearly are. I don’t think all comics today stink, though some of them clearly do. I do believe nostalgia creates an unfair image to force comics to live up to, I believe many of the things we expect writers to do are inherently unreasonable, and I believe that brand recognition and fan loyalty keeps us reading the wrong things for a lot of years, to the detriment of our general comic reading experience.

But honestly? I think the real reason we complain so much is simple: complaining is useful and fun. It really is. As a writer, well-written criticism is more useful than even the most eloquent praise, and the really nasty, biting, sarcastic criticism gives us a twisted giddy rush. The reason we come to message boards is to discuss, and discussion requires back and forth. The love-fest columns and reviews, the ones where everyone agrees and everyone is happy, are the most boring to read, not to mention the most worthless in terms of assessing the value of a work, or a writer, or an idea. Listening to the complaining as well as the praise is how you really figure out what is and isn’t for you, because it gives you a much clearer picture than any one-sided discussion can.

So there’s nothing wrong with complaining, so long as the manner in which one complains allows for a continuation of the discussion. The nature of all drama is conflict, meaning negativity is just as vital to an interesting conversation (or an interesting story) as positive points of view. It’s just important that you pay closer attention to how much complaining you do… not because it’s bad to complain, but because complaining all the time is probably a sign you’re not getting your money’s worth from the comics you buy. Understanding which of the above reasons explains your own dissatisfaction is a good start towards becoming a generally happier comic book reader.

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Recommendation time. Stuff that came out this last week? My favorite hands down was the second volume of The Metabarons (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=30707), from DC/Humanoids. Click the link for my review.

As for the coming weeks, those of you who are following my Winter Reading List (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=30609) should note that my #2 pick, IDW’s Tales of Terror, comes out tomorrow. Furthermore my #9 pick, Escalator, is due to ship next week. If either of these works interests you, keep an eye out. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, click the link to read my Winter Reading List. I’ve provided little blurbs for each, plus links to solicitations. Happy hunting!

The opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the writer, and are not reflective of ComiX-Fan or its other staff in general.

benbacca37
Oct 19, 2004, 03:26 pm
Man, this column sucks!! Why can't this column go back to the days when it was about superheroes? I remember when Joel Phillips writing was awesome. Now he seems to be writing about the same thing I've read over and over again. I want more superhero columns. If this doesn't get better I'm dropping this column for good.
...
...
Okay, I'm done good column Joel.

Dylan McKay
Oct 19, 2004, 07:11 pm
Wooo! The only one that applies to me is the ridiculous expectations, but I see no reason why a suspense thriller with the creativity of 9 1/2, the intelligence of J.S. Mill and a Pythonesque sense of humour isn't reasonable...

Mark
Oct 19, 2004, 07:56 pm
complaining about complaining. Nice angle....

Doombot72
Oct 19, 2004, 08:08 pm
Personally, I feel that we are in a great era of comic creativity. I've been reading comics since the late seventies, and comics have grown up with me. In the eighties we had Miller's Dark Knight and Daredevil, Moore's Watchmen and Swamp Thing, and the seeds for DC's Vertigo imprint were starting to bear fruit.

I do agree that many people need to look outside superheroes if they want stories with a little more meat to them. Don't get me wrong, I still read a few superhero books: Daredevil and most of the Ultimate line, but I'm not expecting anything besides entertainment from them. For the good stuff, I have books like The Walking Dead, Y the Last Man, Hellboy, Sin City (where have you gone?), Fables, and Supreme Power, among others.

Bone was a comic that really succeeded in telling a story that adults and kids could enjoy, but not many do that. If you want some great, mature themed comics, try the ones listed above, as well as standards like Sandman, Preacher, Strangers in Paradise, 100 Bullets......the list really goes on. There are more mature titles being pumped out now than I have ever seen before. So, if you find yourself feeling less than impressed with something you're reading, there is more than likely something out there you can enjoy.

Great column. I hope it sparks a lot of discussion. And now I pose a question: What book(s) would you recommend to an adult who hasn't tried comics?

Joel Phillips
Oct 19, 2004, 08:59 pm
Personally, I feel that we are in a great era of comic creativity. I've been reading comics since the late seventies, and comics have grown up with me. In the eighties we had Miller's Dark Knight and Daredevil, Moore's Watchmen and Swamp Thing, and the seeds for DC's Vertigo imprint were starting to bear fruit.

I do agree that many people need to look outside superheroes if they want stories with a little more meat to them. Don't get me wrong, I still read a few superhero books: Daredevil and most of the Ultimate line, but I'm not expecting anything besides entertainment from them. For the good stuff, I have books like The Walking Dead, Y the Last Man, Hellboy, Sin City (where have you gone?), Fables, and Supreme Power, among others.

Bone was a comic that really succeeded in telling a story that adults and kids could enjoy, but not many do that. If you want some great, mature themed comics, try the ones listed above, as well as standards like Sandman, Preacher, Strangers in Paradise, 100 Bullets......the list really goes on. There are more mature titles being pumped out now than I have ever seen before. So, if you find yourself feeling less than impressed with something you're reading, there is more than likely something out there you can enjoy.

Well said.

Great column. I hope it sparks a lot of discussion. And now I pose a question: What book(s) would you recommend to an adult who hasn't tried comics?

Boy, that's always the tough one, isn't it? As great as some comics are I can't see the average non-comic reader wanting to read them. Sandman is brilliant but certainly not for everyone, and that's just one example.

It really just depends on the person. My sister is 20, and for years we had an unspoken agreement that I wouldn't try to make her read comics. Earlier this year, when she was home for the summer, I handed her my Y the Last Man trades and just said "I don't know why, I can't explain, but I think you'll like this". And to my sister's credit she tried them, and she really liked them. She asked me afterwards what made me think she'd like them, and I still don't know. But obviously there was something, because I was right.

Plus we (and by "we" I mean comic book fans) need to get past this idea that we're going to find that one magic work that will "convert" people into reading a lot of comics on a regular basis. It's just not likely to happen. I didn't recommend Y trying to hook my sister into buying comics, I just thought she'd enjoy that one thing by itself. That's the only circumstances we should be looking at when we try to get anyone to read anything.

But anyway, your best bet for people you know is go with your gut. I find it usually knows what to do.

Jon Hancock
Oct 20, 2004, 01:00 am
Going with your gut? that's the sort of talk that leads to obesity
Nice column Joely.

Kevin Sutton
Oct 20, 2004, 01:10 am
There's an old saying about editorials. Apparently they're like coming down after the battle has ended and shooting the wounded. Meaning that the preference is to analyze where people screwed up after everything's already done.

I find it almost a duty to provide good feedback for something good I read, but when it's analyzing what went wrong in a book I didn't like, its more like I'm trying to get my money's worth. So I can be more enthusiastic.

I personally find also that the books I like don't have many readers so I can't really keep up a conversation or jump into one already in progress in most cases.

As a consequence I tend to talk more about books I'm on the fence on right now, (since any outright bad ones I wouldn't keep around) althought there are exceptions. The last issues of Sleeper, Supreme Power, and Wanted got plenty of talk out of me. We3 especially.

raul grau
Oct 20, 2004, 02:47 am
Interesting piece, Joel, and I know that I could be accused of posting some constructive complaining. I admit that I am probably closest to #4 in temperament, but I only find faults because I care enough to look deeply at the work in question... or because it genuinely does suck. Of course, my expectations might also be a wee bit too high, as my generation has seen the price of comics nearly... hmmm, not sure what the word for it is precisely, but they're almost five times as expensive now as they were when I began. Therefore, I should be consistently entitled to a story of almost 400% greater quality than the ones which first hooked me. :)

- Raul

Dylan McKay
Oct 20, 2004, 04:22 am
Boy, that's always the tough one, isn't it? As great as some comics are I can't see the average non-comic reader wanting to read them. Sandman is brilliant but certainly not for everyone, and that's just one example.

It really just depends on the person. My sister is 20, and for years we had an unspoken agreement that I wouldn't try to make her read comics. Earlier this year, when she was home for the summer, I handed her my Y the Last Man trades and just said "I don't know why, I can't explain, but I think you'll like this". And to my sister's credit she tried them, and she really liked them. She asked me afterwards what made me think she'd like them, and I still don't know. But obviously there was something, because I was right.

Plus we (and by "we" I mean comic book fans) need to get past this idea that we're going to find that one magic work that will "convert" people into reading a lot of comics on a regular basis. It's just not likely to happen. I didn't recommend Y trying to hook my sister into buying comics, I just thought she'd enjoy that one thing by itself. That's the only circumstances we should be looking at when we try to get anyone to read anything.

But anyway, your best bet for people you know is go with your gut. I find it usually knows what to do.

Don't be silly, The Mystery Play is the panacea of the comics industry, get any individual to read it and instantaniously they will ask you what day new comics are released and begin hitting up the shop every Wednesday.

Seriously though, entertainment is all about finding a rythem. I don't watch much TV because I just don't have any rythem as to find out what I'd want to watch when, I'm just not in the routine of TV, so I hardly watch TV. It's not that I think there's no good TV. (Although I could easily get that impression because pretty much any top 50 show I'd dislike, but I'd be ignorant to say that there was nothing.) Comics are much the same, you have to be in the rythem, and it'd be tough to get an adult into a new entertainment rythem unless they feel spurned by their old one. So adults are not the target for growth. The key is to get kids into the rythem, then make sure there are comics for them as teens and then comics for them as adults so they are never spurned by the medium.

Lobster Johnson
Oct 20, 2004, 05:13 am
Of course, my expectations might also be a wee bit too high, as my generation has seen the price of comics nearly... hmmm, not sure what the word for it is precisely, but they're almost five times as expensive now as they were when I began. Therefore, I should be consistently entitled to a story of almost 400% greater quality than the ones which first hooked me. :)But everything gets more expensive over the years. It's just the inflation of the market. You don't expect bread to taste any sweeter than 10 years ago because it's more expensive now do you? Or expect music to be twice as good because CD's cost twice as much?
You would have to pay more now for the same book you bought all years ago too. And it would still contain the same story. Old comics rise in price, but they don't get any better.


So adults are not the target for growth. The key is to get kids into the rythem, then make sure there are comics for them as teens and then comics for them as adults so they are never spurned by the medium.:)Yeah just like with Cola and McDonalds, hook em while they're young.
They will keep the market alive by bying mediocore superhero comics when they're young, so they can buy the good comics when they get older.


Nice colums Joel. :clap:
I sometimes find myself in #6. When a comic becomes crappy after a period of good writing I sometimes cling on just hoping it will get better soon.

bravelybravesirrobin
Oct 20, 2004, 07:38 am
In response to the nostalgia criticism I feel I can give some insight.

being a young whippersnapper of 18 I was not around for the original claremont run on uncanny. I was sucked in during the Lee era by the cool visuals.

having read claremont's run in essential's I can say this then. It is better than what he currently produces.

In my experience anything that is acclaimed from a reviewer's youth that I check out is usually good. No one will evr seel my on bryne's FF or any mid-90's marvel stuff as good but I think you guys are usually good at this even with the nostalgia factor.

efikeysis
Oct 20, 2004, 09:11 am
Well said.

It really just depends on the person. My sister is 20, and for years we had an unspoken agreement that I wouldn't try to make her read comics. Earlier this year, when she was home for the summer, I handed her my Y the Last Man trades and just said "I don't know why, I can't explain, but I think you'll like this". And to my sister's credit she tried them, and she really liked them. She asked me afterwards what made me think she'd like them, and I still don't know. But obviously there was something, because I was right.

Plus we (and by "we" I mean comic book fans) need to get past this idea that we're going to find that one magic work that will "convert" people into reading a lot of comics on a regular basis. It's just not likely to happen. I didn't recommend Y trying to hook my sister into buying comics, I just thought she'd enjoy that one thing by itself. That's the only circumstances we should be looking at when we try to get anyone to read anything.

But anyway, your best bet for people you know is go with your gut. I find it usually knows what to do.
I know what you mean in my early years of comic reading ,my younger sister was not a fan of comics unless it was sylvanian families, but nowadays although she says she doesnt read comics she has a couple of exceptions, one is a british comic "Darkham vale" and the other Is street fighter. And these go back to nostalgia. Playing the games and remembering old horror stories.

I Love the x men, and have collected for quite a while, and with the exception of a few of the writers, The one thing i find myself thinking, is Oh if only they would give me a job as a writer so i could change this or that, keep those elements that i loved and also bring out stuff that is newer and hasnt been done withing that universe.

In my dreams.

Alex Groff
Oct 20, 2004, 10:57 am
I'll admit: I'm a malcontent, with absurdly high standards. I want to be shocked, intrigued or deeply moved by the books I read, and when it doesn't happen, I'm unimpressed. Like with The Milkman Murders: Mitch was quite happy with the story, and when I reread it I saw just what an excellent story it was, but my initial response was "meh," because it didn't shock or intrigue me. (I was glad when the last issue left me scratching my head. But then, I'm one of the dozen people who love Mystery Play, so that might be it.)

Anywho, that was an interesting column. I was thinking about expectations a while back, and how they affect what we read and how we read. Most of the rest of these, I had never given any consideration. The expectations are too low one, for example: it makes so much sense, but who other than a bitter mother like Joel would think of it? That's why he's a genius.

And I have to agree with whoever stated that comics are better now than they have been in a long time. Because there's a lot of high quality stuff other there. Granted, there's also a lot of dreck, but the works that are good are excellent, and it seems like there's something excellent almost every month.

Mike J. Slott
Oct 20, 2004, 08:23 pm
I havent been reading comics very long, but almost everything I read I enjoy, i can honestly say the only bad thing about today's comics is the decompressed storytelling used by some. That annoys me becuase the cost of comics is so high, we should get $3 of entertainment back from our investment. I dont think today's comics suck either, granted I am unfamiliar with most of the old stuff, but the art IMO is at a all time high and so is the writing. Is everything perfect, no, but I am sure it wasnt perfect back in the 80's either. Everything in society grows fonder when we look back on it, because we only really focus on the good stuff. While Im in high school still (senior) I havent always had a great time, but when im 30 years old am i gonna remember being picked on, no im gonna remember the laughs, the good times and the simple things that bring a smile to my face.

Dylan McKay
Oct 20, 2004, 10:54 pm
(I was glad when the last issue left me scratching my head. But then, I'm one of the dozen people who love Mystery Play, so that might be it.)


I did too, I just brought it up because it's such an abstract and weird one to plug into the panacea role. That said, if I was to take a book out of my collection for my mom to read, it'd probably be Mystery Play.

squallnino
Oct 21, 2004, 12:23 am
WHAT!!! complaining bout they pick up a wrong comic, that is plain ---------, i mean you dont pick it up if your atleast not interested, or maybe they are just spending money without thinking! :wall:

Nice article :clap:

Anand Khatri
Oct 21, 2004, 12:28 am
Amazing column Joel. Definetly food for thought.

znop
Oct 21, 2004, 02:23 am
No, my complaint is much simpler than what I have read in this thread so far. It's the total disreguard for contiunity. It just burns my goat when writers don't do their homework. I guess it all go to write different stories but to change and not to explain a change in a hero or villian is well, just a slap in the face (Well, my face anyway.) It's like the time Proudstar all of a sudden could fly or the biggest foulup that I have seen to date "The 6 month gap." I have read doozies that attempt to explain the impossible (Simply we have no facts.) Then comes the "It happen off panel" assumptions which are just as bright as a 5 watt light bulb. I know some want to guess at what could have have happened but, none of it ever pans out and it just comes off as wishful thinking which some how is transformed it to some sort of fact. Writers who get taken of of book who never got to publish what they intended do count as truth. If it wasn't printed it did not happen. That's what make me mad.

Dylan McKay
Oct 22, 2004, 07:10 am
That's why I like creator owned books. No writer worth their salt messes up their own continuity.