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View Full Version : REEDING INTO THINGS #34: THE GROUP DYNAMIC


Joel Phillips
Sep 2, 2004, 07:32 pm
<img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/images/columns/ritlogo.jpg" align=left width=115 height=100 border=0 alt="Reeding Into Things">By Joel Phillips

The Group Dynamic


It’s been observed many times before by many people that, whenever a group of people is brought together, certain dynamics establish themselves. People fall into different roles within the group as it requires them to, and changes in the group’s membership change the roles each person plays. There are many theories that have been formed and tendencies that have been observed in the group dynamics of real people, but I won’t wade into that here.

In comics, groups have their own rules. It seems that the perfect group size is four or five members: enough members to be a team instead of just a team-up, but few enough members to give everyone plenty of face time and really flesh out their characters. What’s more, under this set-up each of these members fulfills a role:

There is the solid figure, characterized by intellect, strategic savvy, or sheer force of will, if not a combination of the three. This figure is usually, but not always, the leader, and is generally male. Interestingly enough their defining characteristic is usually a relatively bland personality when compared to their teammates.
There is the kind-hearted figure that is the emotional center of the team unit. All personal relationships flow through them, one way or another. This figure is usually the group’s token female.
There is the cocky go-getter. Almost always male, usually with a penchant for wise-cracking and displays of foolhardiness passing itself off as courage. This figure is often a ladies’ man as well.
There is the curmudgeon. Again, almost always male, with a chip on their shoulder about something. Either unliked by their teammates or, more commonly, liked just fine but frequently made fun of for their sour attitude.
Finally, there is the outsider. In four member teams, this is usually the curmudgeon, thus explaining the cause of their surly attitude. This person is a part of the group, but there is something that separates them from the other members as well, and it is elevated to a prominent character trait.

Don’t believe me? Let’s look at some examples:

The Fantastic Four: Reed is the steady intellectual, bland but central to the team. Sue is the emotional center, the one all relationships go through (in the case of the FF, quite literally: Reed is her husband, Johnny is her brother, and Ben is the guy who carries the torch for her). Johnny is the cocky jokester, with more bravado than brains. And Ben is the curmudgeon and the outsider, both because of his inhuman appearance and the fact that he is the only member of the team that is not a literal member of the family.

Or take the founding JLA. Flash is steady but kinda dull, so he finds himself with leadership thrust upon him. Black Canary is the emotional center because of her flirtatious relationship with Flash and GL, and because her connection to the JSA provides much of the inspiration for the team’s formation, choice of name, and methods of operation. Green Lantern is the cocky one, Aquaman is the sourpuss, and the Manhunter is the outsider.

Or how about the Avengers, a great example of how people change roles as the line-up changes. Ant-Man started off as the bland but steady guy, with the Wasp as the emotional anchor. Iron Man was cocky, Thor was sour (though he was cocky too), and the Hulk was the outsider. When Hulk left and Cap came in, the roles had to change. Cap was a good replacement for outsider, having come from another time and carrying all that guilt around over Bucky’s death, but he quickly became the new steady guy because of his talents as a leader. This left Ant-Man with no clear role, since his relationship with the Wasp prevented him from being a proper outsider, and besides which Cap was filling that role too.

When the originals were unloaded, look at the new team that formed. Cap was steady leader and outsider still, with the outsider role only increased by surrounding him with all newbies and former villains. Wanda became the emotional center, Pietro became the grump, and Hawkeye became the hotshot… the dynamic was restored.

Now look at the teams that didn’t really work. Take the original X-Men, whose title never properly took off under that original line-up. You had Mr. Steady in Scott, and Ms. Emotional Center in Jean, but that’s where it ends. Hank, Warren and Bobby were all jokesters, and all fairly foolhardy or cocky in their own ways. But none of them was a grump, and none of them was an outsider. Those are critical roles, because they give the team its drama and its pathos, and without them the team feels less complete.

Contrast that with the “new” X-Men. With Sunfire and Thunderbird in and out, and Scott elevated to elder statesman of the new team, we’re left with five new members. Peter was the straight-laced steady fellow; Ororo was the emotional one, both as a center of male attention and as a fiery, assertive female presence; Kurt was the quipping ladies’ man; Logan was the sourpuss; and Sean, older than the other new X-Men, was the outsider.

So what is it about these roles that makes them useful? The answer is actually incredibly simple: having clearly defined, easily understood roles is the best way to make readers care. Especially when you remember who the original audience for superheroes were: young boys. Often uncomfortable, socially awkward young boys, looking for some good, old-fashioned escapist literature.

Think about it:

The outsiders (Thing, Hulk, Martian Manhunter) are the entire “lesson” of superheroes rolled into a single character. Do the variations from person to person make us different (a negative connotation) or special (a positive connotation)? We watch these good-hearted misfits gradually gaining acceptance, being brought out of their shells, making friends, being proven valuable to the team… as we can all be. It’s an uplifting message directed at a group of readers in need of that exact message.

The curmudgeon bleeds into the outsider role so often, and so well, that much of the message is the same. Besides which the curmudgeon is never an actual jerk, is he? Deep down he’s really noble (Wolverine) or sweet (Thing) or generally good-natured, but wanting to be better understood (Thor). There are layers beneath the surface, waiting to be explored and better understood. And in the meantime he provides some comic relief when he’s the butt of jokes, he provides some cool when he takes down the bad guys with a bad-ass quip, and he provides some tension when he just can’t stand the stuff-shirt tactics of his teammates anymore.

The cocky hotshot (Human Torch, Green Lantern, Iron Man) is the young reader himself, or who he so badly wants to be. He’s fun, and funny, and good-looking, and adventurous, and brave, and the ladies love him for it. He’s the escapist role. Honestly, if you were a young man, early teens, who would you rather be: forensic scientist Barry Allen, or hotshot pilot Hal Jordan? Awkward farmboy Peter Rasputin, or swashbuckling acrobat Kurt Wagner? Quirky research scientist Hank Pym, or millionaire playboy Tony Stark? Are these choices even hard?

The steady, reliable, intelligent males (Reed Richards, Cyclops, Captain America, the Flash) are father figures, and what the young boys want to grow up to be. They are all-knowing, able to deal with any situation. They are pillars of their community. They are strong, unwavering. They command great respect. And in case you missed it, it’s them, and not the playboy, that gets the perfect girl in the end. (Brains are better for getting the girl than bravado… do I detect another message for the youth?)

The emotional center (Sue Storm, Black Canary, the Wasp, Jean Grey) are not women by accident. They’re gorgeous, and they’re warm, and they’re able to be strong one minute and saying “oh Reed” as they melt into your arms the next. They are, in truth, a far more realistic depiction of an adolescent male fantasy girl than the scantily clad sex kittens of later generations. Emma Frost might be a kick for a weekend, but so is Jean Grey … and you can bring Jean home to meet your parents.

All these lessons, all these roles, all these deeper meanings, they all serve one purpose: to make you care. Care about the characters, care about their interactions, care about what they have to say about you and yours and what you’d hope to be someday. The faster they can get you to that point of caring, the quicker they’ve got you hooked. And we all know hard it is to get UNhooked once they get a hold on you.

But there’s one point about these roles that makes them even more interesting. Look at what all those line-ups have in common: they are first line-ups, or major roster change line-ups. There are far more line-ups that have existed throughout the history of these franchises, most of which are not so easily separated into clearly defined roles. So what does that tell us? It tells us that these roles are far more important when establishing a team then they are in actually having a team.

But why is that? That’s harder to say. My personal theory is that the roles are so fundamental, covering all the possible character interactions in the least number of characters, that they can’t help but assert themselves in any new team that forms; yet as characters grow, their relationships with one another grow to a level of complexity that no longer fits within the strict boxes of these roles.

There’s nothing wrong with creating characters in the moulds listed above, so long as that mould doesn’t become a cage. Does “curmudgeon” cover the depth of Ben Grimm as a character? Is the Martian Manhunter just an “outsider”, and no more needs to be said? The great strength of these characters is that they began in a mould that makes them easy to identify with, and they grew from there into more complex creations. As long as writers remember that the easy, one-line character type is a starting point, and not a destination, there’s no reason why more great characters can’t grow from these beginnings for many years to come.

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The opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the writer, and are not reflective of ComiX-Fan or its other staff in general.

Scott Williams
Sep 2, 2004, 08:08 pm
Good column, Joel. This definitely sheds some light on what makes certain teams work, and why others don't. (Hey, the Secret Defenders don't have their book anymore... AND they didn't have a female.)

Hey everyone, why not go and see what roles the various members of the Sensational 7 (http://redneckcomics.8m.com) fill? (Cheap plug? Don't mind if I do!)

James Groves
Sep 2, 2004, 08:18 pm
Cracking column Joel, great insight into the roles of team members and the reasons why we care about them.

Great stuff, very enjoyable read.

Does the "new Avengers" fit this dynamic? Maybe thats the reason for Spider-Woman to be in the team ,to be the emotional heart of the group?

Joel Phillips
Sep 2, 2004, 08:38 pm
Honestly, I've forgotten who is in the new Avengers. Can you enlighten me?

Scott Williams
Sep 2, 2004, 09:21 pm
Just thought of something:

SLINGERS:

Prodigy: Definitely the outsider, the "curmudgeon"
Hornet: The "Solid" character
Ricochet: The hotshot, cocky go-getter
Dusk: Obviously, being female, the emotional center. Being dead certainly solidified that.

Toga
Sep 2, 2004, 10:08 pm
Joel that was perfect timing. As i was working out my own group of characters and their personalities i came across your article. At first i was skeptical, i wasn't sure if u were gonna rip on the formula or praise, and if u were gonna rip on it, was scared that i would have been following it and that would have made me feel well inadequite in my writting. Safely to say you didn't rip on the formula, but gave it praise which made me happy, but what also made me happy was that i was following the formula to some degree, and this article itself gave me even more great ideas then i already had. So thanks Joel for inspiring me.

Wolverine
Sep 2, 2004, 11:09 pm
great column

russbrett77
Sep 3, 2004, 12:07 am
One of your best columns to date Joel.

It even applies to the greatest X-team in history (with the exception of gender roles, but that's just Claremont)

New(er) X-Men:

Storm: Leader, solid figure
Colossus: Emotional Center
Nightcrawler: Cocky go-getter
Wolverine: Curmudgeon
Kitty: Outsider

And you're right. The best part about this dynamic is how it changes over time. Character growth is such an interesting part of comics. It's a shame the publisher's haven't figured this out yet.

cranus
Sep 3, 2004, 03:04 am
Good article. I agree with your theory that beginning teams need such roles.

Dylan McKay
Sep 3, 2004, 03:26 am
I think you hit the nail on the head there. But I'll say this, you mentioned the 6th archetype, but failed to include it, the sex symbol, Emma Frost, Fire and others, they definatly lead to interesting stories.

My personal favourite is when the solid leader and the outsider mix to create the manipulative leader. Reed Richards often falls into this, Authoratative Action is a perfect example of this. But Brainiac 5 is the primary example for this. The reason I like this sort of character is because of the moral dilemmas they create within the team.

I also like when the dynamic is shifted so that you get awkward combonations, best example here is Giffen DeMattias Justice League where the goofy nature of the teams made being a strong leader an outsiders role, and the fact that leadership was so difficult made the leaders a curmudgeon, as seen in Martian Manhunter on the American side and Captain Atom in Europe. I think it's a shame that Captain Atom hasn't really been given a good chance with a competant Justice League.

bufuthedragon
Sep 3, 2004, 04:08 am
Great Column, Joel. Yet, I wonder... Are there any other archetypes you can think of, like the one Dylan mentioned? And from a powers point of you, are there basic archetypes like these? For instance: the speedster, the super-strength guy, the shapeshifter, etc.

Jon Hancock
Sep 3, 2004, 07:53 am
The only other team template I can think of is the image 90's team of Genius, Strong dude, Teleporter, Speedster and Leader.

The authority are another different kettle of fish too.

Gveks
Sep 3, 2004, 08:25 am
I think you hit the nail on the head there. But I'll say this, you mentioned the 6th archetype, but failed to include it, the sex symbol, Emma Frost, Fire and others, they definatly lead to interesting stories..

IFirst ever post here, so if i do something wrong i apologise. I would argue however, that the 6th archetype (sex symbol) can very easily be the role of the outsider also. Looking at Emma Frost, a headmistress and all, she still retains her outsider status for so many reasons (former enemy, sleeping with Scott, psychic adultery.)



I also like when the dynamic is shifted so that you get awkward combonations, best example here is Giffen DeMattias Justice League where the goofy nature of the teams made being a strong leader an outsiders role, and the fact that leadership was so difficult made the leaders a curmudgeon, as seen in Martian Manhunter on the American side and Captain Atom in Europe. I think it's a shame that Captain Atom hasn't really been given a good chance with a competant Justice League.

I agree with you compeletely. Group dynamics changing is what makes it interesting. I loved it in Operation Zero Tolerance when Bobby was forced to become the leader archetype... ÿou could just see how it didnt fit and yet it was so interesting to read

jojaxx
Sep 3, 2004, 10:43 am
Quick note about the original X-Men: When re-assembled into X-Factor and written by Louise Simonson they were shifted into the classic roles through significant changes to Bobby (giving up on accounting), Hank (losing his fur & mind) and Warren (angel of death), sliding them perfectly into the roles of hotshot, curmudgeon & outsider. X-Factor v1.0 is a classic example of how these roles change a dull group into an interesting family.

CurtWarner
Sep 3, 2004, 11:11 am
Cracking column Joel, great insight into the roles of team members and the reasons why we care about them.

Great stuff, very enjoyable read.

Does the "new Avengers" fit this dynamic? Maybe thats the reason for Spider-Woman to be in the team ,to be the emotional heart of the group?


Hmmmmm...

Captain America--Strong leader, a little bland, and a bit of outsider ('40's attitude)
Iron Man--Cocky Hotshot genius w/ a little arrogance, loves his toys and his playmates (bet anything he's a Scorpio)
Spider-Woman--cool professional detective--friend of Spidey and Wolverine---possible link for Wolverine to stay
Luke Cage---professional guy--fits curmudgeon type but is very pro
Spider-Man--cocky loner who gets along w/nearly everyone
Wolverine--he seems to be the curmudgeon, but in the X-Men these last few years, he's been the glue in a LOT of ways.
The Sentry--definitely outsider

Supposed to be 7 or more beyond these, but I haven't heard yet.

Mr. Bungle
Sep 3, 2004, 12:09 pm
I think it's a shame that Captain Atom hasn't really been given a good chance with a competant Justice League.

Funny you should mention that...it even seems to have carried over into Justice League Unlimited. The first episode had Green Lantern with Captain Atom as well as reluctant Green Arrow and hotshot Supergirl.

Dylan McKay
Sep 3, 2004, 06:53 pm
IFirst ever post here, so if i do something wrong i apologise. I would argue however, that the 6th archetype (sex symbol) can very easily be the role of the outsider also. Looking at Emma Frost, a headmistress and all, she still retains her outsider status for so many reasons (former enemy, sleeping with Scott, psychic adultery.)


True, that's why I also included Fire. If you look at the JLI.

Martian Manhunter-Leader/outsider with a hint of curmudgeon
Guy Gardiner-Curmudgeon
Booster Gold-Hot Shot
Ice-Emotional Center
Blue Beetle-Another new take on an archetype by Giffen/Demattias, the solid goof ball. Also used with Elongated Man on the Europe team. Blue Beetle is a smart and reliable guy, but he's a total goof that is in no way a leader.
Fire-Definatly too involved in the team to be the outsider, too much of a ____ distruber to be the emotional center, but not enough to be the curmudgeon. A female hot shot? Maybe, but in a way, the female hot shot becomes a sex symbol.

UltimateFan
Sep 3, 2004, 11:14 pm
Great column EXCEPT - -
Or take the founding JLA. Flash is steady but kinda dull, so he finds himself with leadership thrust upon him. Black Canary is the emotional center because of her flirtatious relationship with Flash and GL, and because her connection to the JSA provides much of the inspiration for the team’s formation, choice of name, and methods of operation. Green Lantern is the cocky one, Aquaman is the sourpuss, and the Manhunter is the outsider.

Sorry, you can't call the "JLA: Year One" lineup "the founding JLA" unless your column is set in DC continuity. Your analogy falls COMPLETELY flat because we never read this team, at least not as a founding team, until the 1990's. The JLA was created ~1960! We didn't need to be introduced to the JLA in 1998! They never even had an ongoing series!

The TRUE founding JLA, of Brave and the Bold #28 fame, was Superman, Batman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, and Aquaman. (Not surprisingly, this is the "classic" team.) I dare you to shoehorn THIS group into defined roles.

Joel Phillips
Sep 4, 2004, 12:51 am
I think the analogy holds perfectly, for two reasons. First, it shows that these roles assert themselves just as heavily in teams constructed in the modern era as those constructed in the Golden or Silver ages. Second, it shows a consciousness on Waid's part of the necessity of these roles in growing a team unit. That is, after all, the entire point of Year One in the first place... showing the formation and maturation of the team that we never got to see before.

As for the "real" founding JLA not fitting into those roles... you're joking, right? They practically invented those roles. My appraisals of GL, Aquaman, Manhunter and the Flash remain valid, with Wonder Woman taking the Black Canary role (she's a strong female character, and has the added benefit of being the senior adventurer when Clark and Bruce are away). Beyond that you have Superman, literally the original straight-man, and Batman, the archetypal outsider/curmudgeon to this very day. Of course if you look back at those early JLA adventures, you'll notice that a greater spotlight, character-wise, is placed on the newer JLA members than on Superman and Batman. So you can have it whichever way you want it: look at the fully functioning five character unit, with Superman and Batman separate, or look at a seven man unit that still has everyone sitting in nice, comfy roles.

But I am glad you brought it up... I must have had a total brain melt to have mentioned one and not the other. Shame on me.

Jon Hancock
Sep 4, 2004, 01:04 am
Completely flat. lol

the original JLA weren't that successful either. It wasn't until Teen Titans that a book really took off

hmmm....

Nightwing - stoic leader
Troia - emotional
Raven - outsider
Kid Flash/Cyborg - curmudgeon
Beast Boy - joker

:D

raul grau
Sep 4, 2004, 05:05 am
Nice analysis on comic book team dynamics, Joel. One thing though... I dare you to apply similar logic to the Levitz-era LSH with its dozens of members. :)

Your analogy falls COMPLETELY flat because we never read this team, at least not as a founding team, until the 1990's. The JLA was created ~1960! We didn't need to be introduced to the JLA in 1998!!

Technically, we were first introduced to that particular founding JLoA lineup ten years earlier than you said, in 1988. From that point, they appeared together in quite a few flashback stories and the like, but Year One was the longest consistent depiction of them together.

I actually prefer those 5 as the founding members, since they made a lot more since as a team than the random grab-bag of DC characters that was the original 7. Anyway, to each his own.

The TRUE founding JLA, of Brave and the Bold #28 fame, was Superman, Batman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, and Aquaman. (Not surprisingly, this is the "classic" team.)

I may have gone quite mad (and it is way too late at night for me to go digging for a copy of JLoA #7), but I don't believe that Batman was a 'founding' member of the team. If memory serves, it was GL, Flash, MM, WW, Aquaman, and Supers who dealt with the alien menace when the team's origin was finally told. Of course, it could just be a mental burp on my part. :)

- Raul

Dylan McKay
Sep 4, 2004, 05:49 am
The reason the Legion is so difficult to write is because it requires the writer to use or create new archetypes. I love Brainiac 5 as a "machiavellian hero."

The original JLA had no archetypes, Gardner Fox's team was so freaking vanilla it's no wonder they started getting creamed as soon as Fantastic Four put on spandex. It wasn't until Denny O'Neil took over that any of them developped personality.

Another archetype:

The everyman/nice guy. Just as the sex symbol is a female hotshot, the everyman is the male emotional center. The nice guy, a bit awkward, but gets along and is trusted by the team. Cannonball is a great example of this type of character. The everyman is a great character for fantasy purposes because they are generally very relatable as alot of males either are or feal like the nice guy and alot are comics readers. The big plus is the course of development. Because the everyman/nice guy is trusted and liked by his teammates, once the character gains self confidence and emotional strength of their own, rather than just giving other emotional strength, they become a natural fit as a leader. Dick Grayson probably also fills this model. As does Snapback. (He's from Wildguard, a very fun comic series by Young Justice artist Todd Nauck. I highly recommend getting the trade when it comes out as well as the one-shot due out in December. Come on people, we gotta get this as an ongoing series.)

Alex Guillen
Sep 5, 2004, 12:51 am
well all groups are made up of different individuals with different characteristics that make them who they are and they don't have to be the same in interest, attitude , etc.
Overall, I think the diverse characteristics in each character in a group book is what makes it work. Why? not only because you can identify with the character according to your own personality (I'm probably a mix of a leader and an outside in the same: not the paradox) but also because you can relate it to your own life and friends.
Very good column, Joel.

Firelion
Sep 6, 2004, 01:00 pm
Just thought of something:

SLINGERS:

Prodigy: Definitely the outsider, the "curmudgeon"
Hornet: The "Solid" character
Ricochet: The hotshot, cocky go-getter
Dusk: Obviously, being female, the emotional center. Being dead certainly solidified that.

I see the team a little differently, actually.

To me, Hornet's the emotional center of the team. All of the relationships in the team flow through him, as per Joel's description: Eddie and Johnny are best friends; he's in love with Cassie; and he has a real disdain for (and perhaps fear of) Ritchie.

Ricochet, I will concur, is as close to the "cocky go-getter" role as any of the Slingers get. He's certainly a wise-cracking, foolhardy hero, but the ladies' man persona doesn't quite fit. Although Cassie did show a brief liking towards him, he was pretty much a one woman man, focusing on his girlfriend (Cathy, was it? I always forget her name).

Dusk, although the female, is the obvious outsider in this situation. Her interaction with the group is severely limited; she generally only interacted with Eddie (and, on rare occasion, Johnny). She and Prodigy had little to anything to do with each other.

Although Prodigy had the chip on his shoulder, he could just as easily be seen as the solid figure. He's a humorless guy, who tries to do the right thing (but goes about it all the wrong way), no matter what the cost. Ritchie also seemed to want to be the leader of the crew (or, at the very least, second in command to Black Marvel) before they split.

Which leads us to another archetype: the mentor figure, usually an older man acting as a guide and a teacher to younger students. Examples include Professor Xavier of the X-Men, Red Tornado in Young Justice, Banshee and Emma Frost as instructors to Generation X, and The Karate Kid's own Mr. Kesuke Miyagi of course.

UltimateFan
Sep 7, 2004, 01:34 am
As for the "real" founding JLA not fitting into those roles... you're joking, right?
I never said that. I think the word "dare" confused you a bit (as well as my wording afterward) - I merely wanted you to define this team.
They practically invented those roles. My appraisals of GL, Aquaman, Manhunter and the Flash remain valid, with Wonder Woman taking the Black Canary role (she's a strong female character, and has the added benefit of being the senior adventurer when Clark and Bruce are away). Beyond that you have Superman, literally the original straight-man, and Batman, the archetypal outsider/curmudgeon to this very day. Of course if you look back at those early JLA adventures, you'll notice that a greater spotlight, character-wise, is placed on the newer JLA members than on Superman and Batman. So you can have it whichever way you want it: look at the fully functioning five character unit, with Superman and Batman separate, or look at a seven man unit that still has everyone sitting in nice, comfy roles.
Your analogy falls flat again. The problem is that these roles didn't even exist in their current form until Fantastic Four #1.

Until very late in its existence, the JSA (I don't know about other GA teams) took basically the form of solo stories for each member, with one background villian pulling the strings or fighting the team. At the end the entire group got together and snared the villian one last time. As time passed the JSA went to pairing heroes two at a time, but the interplay wasn't much different from the later Superman/Batman stories in World's Finest. The characters almost never had any personality whatsoever. Their powers were teaming up, not the characters themselves.

DC first decided to try real teamwork, as opposed to combined brute force, with the JLA - and at first (and possibly several more times through the 60's) the same pattern as the JSA was followed. Neither any Golden Age team nor any DC Silver Age team really had the interplay you see in team books today.

Then came FF #1.

The leadership role was in place as a natural result of the creation of teams, but it was rarely little more than a title. I would argue that Reed Richards defined the role of a leader for years to come, simply by being different from his teammates. The only "solid" figure before him was Superman or Captain America, and even that was little more than "look at him, he's so great".

The biggest contribution of the FF to team dynamics is the emotional center, which you define as:
There is the kind-hearted figure that is the emotional center of the team unit. All personal relationships flow through them, one way or another. This figure is usually the group’s token female.
Superhero team relationships didn't exist before Reed and Sue had the hots for one another. Take another look at the original founding JLA. All except the Martian Manhunter (and possibly Aquaman) had Lois Lane-style girlfriends (I'm counting Steve Trevor). (If Aquaman didn't have one, he had no relationships at the time and was wide open when Mera came along.) All had their own titles except MM (again, I'm not sure about Aquaman), and none except Superman and Batman regularly met outside the JLA (and their teamups weren't much different from those of the JLA). Inside, the JLA was all about business. These weren't real people teaming up, they were robots. The FF were the first team of real people. And real people, not robots (unless you're the Vision), have relationships.

Before the FF, no superheroes had enough personality to joke around (as I said, early teams were all business), and they sure as hell weren't curmudgeons. Batman was never a (full-fledged) member of the JSA and he joined the JLA back in the days of stories like "The Zebra Batman" and "The Rainbow Batman", so he doesn't count since he was the opposite of the Kane(/Finger) character, and how exactly was Aquaman ever a grouch? Superheroes were supposed to be happy, perfect little things. A superhero hating anything about his life? That's crazy talk! Such things are to be contained in the space of a single issue, after which everything would be back to normal. The Thing was the first character for whom self-hatred was normal, and the fact that he hated his powers, of all things, made it all the more shocking.

There was an outsider role before, as in MM. But it wasn't played for story potential until at least the 70's. In fact, even with other DC teams like the Teen Titans coming along, DC didn't start trying the Marvel formula with any of its books until the Doom Patrol, also known as DC's Blatant Attempt To Copy the Marvel Formula. Put aside the X-Men, the Doom Patrol are really a ripoff of the FF: The Chief = Reed Richards' smarts, Elasti-Girl = Sue with Reed's powers, Negative Man = Human Torch with a somber, Thing-like side, Robotman = Thing, complete with somber side. The team still treated the idea of relationships as a sin, though, and DC didn't try true relationships until the 70's and "Green Lantern/Green Arrow". Relationships established there were the extent of DC relationships in teams until the Wolfman/Perez Titans, although personalities, and possibly aspects of the roles, probably crept in before then.

And that, my students, is how Marvel changed the superhero business.

raul grau
Sep 7, 2004, 03:21 am
As time passed the JSA went to pairing heroes two at a time, but the interplay wasn't much different from the later Superman/Batman stories in World's Finest. The characters almost never had any personality whatsoever. Their powers were teaming up, not the characters themselves.

Oversimplify, much? :)

Yes, in the earliest years, the heroes had individual chapters, but as of 1947, the stories became more varied, with sometimes 2, 3, or more members per chapter, and occasionally the entire team was working together for the majority of the issue.

The heroes were also not complete ciphers. You could say that they lacked the nuance of the FF (or Blackhawks, or any other team with heroes who lacked their own individual titles), but they were clearly individuals. Hawkman was the leader (well, chairman), and everyone else deferred to him. Atom had a massive inferiority complex, and worried what the others would think of him. Johnny Thunder was pure comic relief, and the others enjoyed poking fun at him. Wonder Woman was accepting of her subservient role, whereas Black Canary was a lot more driven to play with the 'boys'. There are several more, but you get the idea.

Superhero team relationships didn't exist before Reed and Sue had the hots for one another. Take another look at the original founding JLA. All except the Martian Manhunter (and possibly Aquaman) had Lois Lane-style girlfriends.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'Lois Lane-style girlfriends'. If you mean that heroes were dating women who were not 'in the business', then you forget about Hawkman and Hawkgirl, who often fought crime together, even in several JSA adventures.

Before the FF, no superheroes had enough personality to joke around (as I said, early teams were all business)

Have you ever actually read an issue of All-Star comics? The heroes were constantly joking around. In #9, for example, they sent rookie Johnny Thunder on a mission to catch a killer that did not really exist.

DC didn't start trying the Marvel formula with any of its books until the Doom Patrol, also known as DC's Blatant Attempt To Copy the Marvel Formula. Put aside the X-Men, the Doom Patrol are really a ripoff of the FF: The Chief = Reed Richards' smarts, Elasti-Girl = Sue with Reed's powers, Negative Man = Human Torch with a somber, Thing-like side, Robotman = Thing, complete with somber side. The team still treated the idea of relationships as a sin, though, and DC didn't try true relationships until the 70's and "Green Lantern/Green Arrow".

First off, let me just remind everybody that Doom Patrol predates the X-Men, so they certainly cannot be seen as mutant rip-offs. It is true that the founders did have quite a bit common with the FF, but, unlike the FF, they added a couple more members eventually.

And, you're right, relationships were strictly off limits on the team... except for the whole Elasti-Girl marrying Mento thing, and them raising Beast Boy together. No interconnection there at all.

Anyway, I have no idea what you mean by true relationships? Do you mean realistic friendships, like between Barry Allen and Elongated Man? Maybe 'father-son' relationships, like between Barry and Wally? Or do you mean romantic entanglements among teammates, like Black Canary and Green Arrow?

- Raul

Jon Hancock
Sep 7, 2004, 07:34 am
Also ignoring Challengers of the Unknown. I'm pretty sure that pre-dates the FF and was chick full of inter team play.

Dylan McKay
Sep 7, 2004, 07:36 am
If it wasn't for the fact that they were created by the same person, Fantastic Four would be a rip-off of Challengers of the Unknown.

NateGrey65
Sep 8, 2004, 07:24 am
That's funny-one of the X-Teams I always paid attention to was:
Storm(the stoic leader), Beast(the heart), Gambit(the hotshot), Rogue(the loner), and Wolverine (the curmudgeon).
They were the central team in the orignal Fox Animated X-Men TV series (There was a point when Cyclops and Jean Grey were inexplicably absent from the Roster, or at least they were never featured). I always thought it was a well-balanced team in terms of powers and experience but it also fits perfectly with your personality scheme. Cool!

Dylan McKay
Sep 8, 2004, 09:35 pm
That would have been when Sinister kidnapped Scott And Jean, season 2.

Ricky
Sep 16, 2004, 02:31 pm
Tow more teams worth analyzing:
The Astonishing X-Men and The Ultimates

The Astonishing X-Men
Cyclops/Scott Summers is so qualified as Leader with an otherwise boring Personality, that I won't even consider the alternatives.
Beast seems to me the Outsider not only of the team, but of the human race as well.
Wolverine most likely qualifies as Curmudgen.
Kitty Pryde and Emma Frost are the difficult ones. I'd apply Kitty for Hotshot, because she's young, good-looking, adored by the students and the most likely candidate as identification figure for the reader. Likewise, Emma Frost could be seen as the Emotional Centre of the team, interacting strongly with Scott (Love), Kitty (Hatred) and the team as a whole (giving out orders, setting the general direction). I'm a bit insecure about this last choice, though.



The Ultimates (after the conclussion of Volume 1)

Captain America and Nick Fury both qualify as steady leaders, if otherwise sometimes boring persons. Nick Fury certainly has more wits and is more likely to do something unexpected, though.
Ironman certainly qualifies for the role of Posing Hotshot. Black Widow might fall into this category as well, though. She's enjoying life, doesn't seem to care very much, and there certainly is no other role she's qualified for.
Thor and Hulk are both the ultimate Outsiders as well as the Curmudgens among the Ultimates. Thor isn't even a regular member of the team, he doesn't belong to the crowd, so to speak, and his powers certainly set him off as much as his lifestyle. Bruce Banner was picked upon even before his rampage across New York, and afterwards he's seperated from the team (and everyone else) completely.
Wasp is hard to place, but I'd say she was pretty much an Emotional Focus of the team, especially with her relationship towards Hank and later Cap.
Hawkeye, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch can't be placed yet, since none of them has taken on a distinct personality, yet, or taken on any role within the team dynamics.


The Dark Knights

I have another team for you to figure out, though:
A fictional team (http://www.thekryptonian.com/showthread.php?p=139822#post139822), made up by a fan (myself actually), and put online, for the admiration and praise of my fellow fanboy community... ;)