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View Full Version : DID I THINK THAT OUT LOUD?!? #39: WHAT'S A COMIC, ANYWAY?


Jim Lemoine
Jun 22, 2004, 02:36 am
<img src="http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/logos/dittol_logo.gif" align=left border=0 alt="Did I Think That Out Loud?!? logo">By Jim Lemoine, jimlemoine@comixfan.cjb.net

What's A Comic, Anyway?

What is a comic? What does the average person think of, when they think of a "comic book"? Why isn't that a good thing?

A warning to Marvel Mavens, Spider-supporters, and X-fanatics; this column will probably be a lot less Marvel-centric than those that have gone before.

A "comic book" is defined by the dictionary as a "magazine of comic strips." A "comic strip" is defined as a "sequence of drawings relating a comic incident." A "comic" incident is one that is "provoking laughter" or "humorous."

Aside from the humorous works of creators like Gail Simone and Jeff Smith, does that sound like most comics you know? Didn't think so. Even the dictionary is against us, underestimating the true meaning and potential that comics offer.

As we the readers know, a comic book is merely an alternative means of telling a story. Stories can be told verbally, or through theater, or through the written page in such styles as prose or poetry. In a written format, a story can be recorded as words alone (such as a novel), words with pictures (such as an illustrated story), or a third format that combines prose and art into one seamless page. The comic book is an illustrated story, wherein pictures take the place of virtually all text with the exception of dialog. Where most novels contain many paragraphs throughout to establish setting... to paint a picture in the reader's head of the scenery surrounding the events... a comic book instead skips those paragraphs, opting to leave less to the reader's imagination and present the setting as a graphic image. Similarly, comics skip the paragraphs that explain things like time, appearance, motion, posture, and facial expression. All of this is conveyed through the art of the comic, leaving little more than the dialog to be conveyed through words.

The strengths of this model include its ease of readability and the opportunity to showcase an artist's talents. It also affords readers with a generally quicker read; after all, it's much faster to absorb information on setting and character through a picture than it is through two pages of detailed explanations. The reader will also receive the exact impression that the author wanted to create, while a simple prose novel might leave the details of a character's appearance or a setting's specifics to the imagination.

On the other hand, some might argue that those who prefer comics are lazy, for the very same reasons. A comic takes less energy to read, less patience, and a whole lot less imagination... usually. There are those who've sampled both, and decisively prefer the basic prose model, for the simple reason that it lets them imagine the story more fully in their brain… a mental picture more vivid than it could possibly be illustrated in static images on the printed page.

Still, positives and negatives aside, comic books are, at their core, simply a different way of storytelling, one that emphasizes art and story equally. And from a modern storytelling standpoint, that's a fantastic thing for maintaining the reader's interest and allowing full communication of a creator's vision. There's an old truism in novel-writing: "You can never have too much dialog." Some readers get easily bored with reading lots of description, and many readers actually skip over the explanatory exposition in books, looking for those golden quote-marks that mean that someone's finally talking. There are few devices in fiction writing that are more attention grabbing than engaging dialog... and that means that comic books hold a natural advantage over many other forms of storytelling; in comics, the reader can see the setting for themselves and skip right to that precious dialog.

So in many ways, graphic storytelling, as done in comic books, is a superior (or at least, comparable) method of communicating an author's vision. And yet, comic books haven't really caught on as a mainstream vehicle for storytelling. Why is that? Is it because comics are arguably not as mentally stimulating as prose, as some have claimed? I tend to doubt it; after all, there's little in the world more mainstream than movies and television, which are easily the least brain-intensive methods of receiving information that have ever been invented. If stories on the screen require absolutely no creative energy on the part of the viewer, why is that method of communication considered more mature than comic books?

I've heard it argued, especially during several mainstream comic revamps about three years ago, that one of the reasons that comic books were seen so negatively by the rest of the world was because of the total continuity, the long history, in most of the non-kiddie mainstream series. However, that argument doesn't really work either; look at American dramas like 24 or X-Files. The history of the series is all-important, what's gone before influences what comes afterwards, and the series as a whole would be much weaker without drawing on its continuity. Or look at popular, critically-acclaimed British comedies like The Office or Coupling (which is much better than its pathetic American counterpart): these shows let each episode build on the next, letting subplots grow throughout multiple episodes, and trifling matters from the first seasons are even referenced often during the second seasons. No, history, done properly, can only make a story stronger, not weaker, and gives the reader (or viewer) the impression of being caught up in something truly epic.

Which leaves subject matter as the prime suspect in the mainstream's disdain of comics. And what's the vast majority of the subject matter in American comics been for the past fifty years or so? Kiddie-cartoon books, teens at Riverdale High, and superheroes. All three make sense for the comic format, even more so than other types of stories: comics are easy to read, which makes them perfect for children and young adults. And the unbelievable two-fisted action of superheroism just begs to be illustrated in detailed, sequenced drawings: how effective would the first Superman story have been, if it was just Jerry Siegel & Joe Shuster writing pulp novels about a man flying through the air?

But why have comics been limited to such a small cross-section of the world's literary output? Or, more specifically, the Western world's literary output, since comics, through anime, are a respected part of the mainstream in the East? Why aren't there more romance comics, or horror comics, or historical fiction comics, or non-super-powered adventure comics? And hey, why does it have to be fiction? Why can't history books or books on current events be written as comics? Heck, why aren't How-To books written as comics, since one would think that would make it easiest for the reader to follow along with the instructions?

There are two mainstream authors who I've always felt were amazingly well-suited to become comic writers: Ann Coulter and Al Franken. For those unfamiliar with those names, both are American political commentators, one making his home far on the Left, and the other staking out a spot way over on the Right. Both write in flowery exaggerations, embarrassing insults, and shamelessly colorful rhetoric, most of which doesn't mind being a bit untrue. Fans of these authors don't necessarily read them to learn anything, so much as they read them to be entertained by a viewpoint that they already agree with. The writers are flip-sides of the same coin, writing in a flamboyant, biting, often ludicrous style - wouldn't they appreciate the opportunity to see the objects of their vitriol illustrated in full sequential art? Wouldn't Ann Coulter jump at the chance to script a comic scene with Ted Kennedy fishing in a pork barrel? Wouldn't Al Franken enjoy creating a comic issue of Dick Cheney swindling a baby out of its candy? Wouldn't these two... colorful... writers prefer telling their stories with pictures and words to better communicate the sheer evil they accuse their opponents of?

There hasn't really been a wide selection of non-kiddie, non-superhero books in comics for about fifty years, the heyday of EC Comics (yes, kids, this is before Stan Lee's Marvel Silver Age). EC had horror comics, war comics, horror comics, adventure comics, horror comics, romance comics, horror comics, pirate comics... and did I mention the horror comics? EC was a very successful company (before the Comics Code forced them out of business). With the decline of EC, it wasn't long before Lee's Marvel became the market leader, and the sheer success his superheroes met with virtually guaranteed the supremacy of the superhero in comics for a long time to come (although it's worth mentioning that throughout the sixties, Millie the Model was consistently one of Marvel's top sellers, usually beating out most of the classic superhero titles like X-Men and Avengers!).

So the superhero has ruled for nearly a half-century, which isn't to say that other types of stories haven't been tried. On Marvel's side of the aisle, the seventies and eighties were big periods of experimentation, with a strong line of horror books and westerns in the seventies (although those horror books were only mildly amusing, as compared to the really scary old EC classics) and several aborted attempts at differentiation in the eighties (most helmed by Editor-In-Chief Jim Shooter, including books about fantasy crystal swordsmen, science fiction swashbucklers, truckers, and Pope John Paul II). Since then, DC has easily taken the lead at stretching the boundaries of comics with their groundbreaking Vertigo line and books like Sandman, Preacher, and Y: The Last Man. DC's Vertigo is arguably the best chance the comic format has to grow; Marvel, meanwhile, has languished. Even their mature MAX line has proven to be hopelessly superhero-centric.

I'm a big fan of Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics, a non-fiction comic book that makes a lot of the points I'm trying to make here, but much better than I ever could. Comics are seen as kid-stuff, and they've been stagnating in superheroes for nearly fifty years - isn't it time to see how much more the comic format is capable of?

What is a comic? Is it a set of humorous comic strips? Nope. Is it a superhero story? Nope. Is it a wholly valid method of storytelling, one that's demonized by the mainstream and has failed to reach anything close to its full potential? Is it the perfect vehicle for telling visual stories, creating a perfect communication between creator and reader, and making facts, even non-fiction, come alive?

You bet your sweet Aunt Petunia it is.

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Jim Lemoine wrote a business management book a while back, and he's got this great plan on how to adapt it to comic form....

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The opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the writer, and are not reflective of ComiX-Fan or its other staff in general.

Robb Welch
Jun 22, 2004, 02:54 am
yes but redefining comics?

cicada rosa
Jun 22, 2004, 03:30 am
Good article, Mr. Lemoine.
Just as a note, I like and agree with your remarks that Marvel has real trouble creating non-superhero books, even for the MAX line.

Radiate
Jun 22, 2004, 08:40 am
Love this article Jim,great insight.

i tend to agree,Marvel needs to cash in on non-comic books.I try to show friends that comics are worth reading,and have interesting concepts,and the only titles i think would grab my friends' attentions are titles from DC especially Vertigo titles,and NONE from Marvel except probably Runaways...

RADIATE!

James Groves
Jun 22, 2004, 02:58 pm
Great article!

I agree. Vertigo seems to be the only imprint where comics can grow and mature, i just wish Marvel would try to follow suit without incorporating a superhero element.

Scott Williams
Jun 22, 2004, 04:04 pm
Jim, Jim, Jim... excellent column.

What more can I say?

(Well, I could say "Hey everyone, go read Redneck Comics (http://redneckcomics.8m.com), it's a fresh way to look at the traditionally taken-for-granted boundaries of comic storytelling," but that type of shameless self-promotion is below me. (http://redneckcomics.8m.com))

Patrick James
Jun 22, 2004, 05:00 pm
This was a good read Jim. I love you're referencing 24 and X-Files as examples of popular mainstream media that rely on continuity. Really, a thought-provoking read.

As a matter of fact, it prompts me to incite a whole soon-to-be argument over a certain quote a certain creator made in an interview at The Pulse (http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/pulse.cgi?http%3A//www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi%3Fubb%3Dget_topic%26f%3D36%26t%3D002359) recently.


...a lot of people have realized, "Hey. It's the X-Men. If I wanted high art, I could read actual literature. Let it be what it is."


A quote like this from someone working in the industry as a professional seems like a slap in the face of people like myself who already consider comic books to be literature and, in some cases, high art. It also works against the efforts of Vertigo and other lines that work to stretch comics, and their perception in the vast populus, as something other than children's picture books.

nekretaal
Jun 22, 2004, 05:52 pm
What is comics?

Well, I think that it is useful to lump all forms of graphic storytelling pieced together from original artwork together into the same single category, including among other things, children's books (The Cat in the Hat), compilations of newspaper serials (Garfield), Japanese Manga (Shonen Jump), monthly 22 page magazines (Spider-man), and adult oriented original graphic novels (Sandman: Endless nights).

The New York Times publishes Bestseller data in the "Graphic Novel" category.

I'd go by that definition. Any other semantic definition that distinguishes between forms of graphic storytelling obscures the overall picture of the market.

From a pure-business perspective, the "Spider-man" business which is a licensing business influenced by publishing isn't all that different from the "Garfield" business, even though the two reach vastly different target audiences. Moreover, aside from the cheaply licensed manga succeeds because it is "dumped" on the USA market, the overall concerns and market difficulties aren't that dissimilar among the other various forms of graphic storytelling (comedy, drama, superheroes, & commentary on politics).

I don't think that comic X-fan should necessarily cover the graphic world outside of the comic book store, but the developments in the other books should be looked at as very influential in determining industry trends.

M-Angel
Jun 22, 2004, 06:48 pm
If japanese comics have their own name (Manga) even if they come from the same place as your average comic, I think everything from the classic Superman to the Vertigo Line should be called "Graphic Novel" I mean even grown men called Grant Morrison´s run on New X-men "cerebral" and I dont think the average comic book storyline can be compared with that of a comic strip.
I mean no one is going to rename comic books but to me "Graphic Novel" just seems more fair

dopplegager
Jun 22, 2004, 10:03 pm
Good point. The superheros hgave dominated for over half a centurey. But whats wrong with that.

Float On

Ann Nichols
Jun 23, 2004, 01:36 am
Originally posted by M-Angel
I mean no one is going to rename comic books but to me &quot;Graphic Novel&quot; just seems more fair

Did you know that before books in comic book form dubbed themselves "graphic novels", a "graphic novel" meant a book with explicit sex scenes in it?

Frankly, I'm with the comic strip character, Betty, who, when her husband told her his comic book was a "graphic novel", offered him "oatmeal dessert disks" and "bovine extract".

********************
Jim, be glad your dictionary has an entry for "comic book". My dictionary, from the early '60s, has one only for comic strips.

What do you mean "comics, through anime"? I thought manga were around and popular before anime existed. (I forget which century they were from, but in 1986, when I was taking a 3-week seminar on English libraries and librarianship at Oxford, I got to see the little illustrated booklets that eventually evolved into manga.)

As for myself, I love illustrations in books. I have several editions of some books just for the different illustrations. Comic books mean lots and lots of illustrations. If I like or love the art, it makes the story that much more enjoyable. If I hate the art, though, I resent having it stuck in my brain along with the dialog (Mr. Tan illustrating the scene where Cain and Charles thresh out their youthful "issues" from 'Uncanny X-Men" #429 is a prime example of hated art used with a scene I wish some other artist had drawn.)

I don't love comic books because I'm lazy. I read four (short) novels in the last two days.

The Army uses comic book format for its soldiers -- or they did when I worked for them. I enjoyed reading "PS Monthly", their preventive maintenance comic, even though, as a medical librarian, I didn't do p.m. on vehicles and weapons. (They even put out a little comic book to explain their homosexual policy a few years back. It left me feeling :wt: )

"The Simpsons" helped remind Middle America that animated cartoons weren't always "just for kids". Comic books could use that kind of mind change.

Justice Daye
Jun 23, 2004, 02:08 am
Originally posted by Patrick James
A quote like this from someone working in the industry as a professional seems like a slap in the face of people like myself who already consider comic books to be literature and, in some cases, high art. It also works against the efforts of Vertigo and other lines that work to stretch comics, and their perception in the vast populus, as something other than children's picture books.

I thought (or hope) the comment meant that all comics don't have to be "high art." Not that some aren't or shouldn't be, but that they can still be quality with =out being high art, much like how all movies don't have to win oscars to be worth watching.

Great article, Jim. I'll never see comics as only high art because every writer isn't capable of that (many aren't), much like some writers aren't capable of writing straight superhero stories. I think for comics to go to less herioc directions, you'll need writers from other genres that haven't written comics. I think that's the general problem here high art cmics are prententious, overanalyzed, over-wrought, over-indulgent, and melodramatic...when they aren't written as down-to-earth, relatable, and high minded reading. Ellis did it with Transmet, for instance. It takes a level of writer that can simplify high art comics for a mass audience and still maintain their depth and relevance, instead of just pontificating, speechifying and throwing random ideas at the reader without any examination (I'm looking at you, GM). Since you won't find that often, you'll find people still reading about superheros. There is no other genre that is as translatable (in american comics,) to a wide audience anyway.

Besides all that, I like superheroes and many other genres of comics. Fans shouldn't apologize for that. They are still around for a reason...because they are popular, not that it should be the only genre, but because it's the only one that can translate on a massive scale. Ideas that go from mind to page to reader and stay fresh as well as maintaining the writers ideas and inspiring some of the readers own. When a genre can do that, it'll at least challenge the thrown of the superhero.

But, that all besides the major point, Jim./ Comics aren't thought of as literary, partly because heroes are thought of as childish, but mostly because they're just too short. Novels and magazine can tell an entire story in one volume, comics usually can't. Notice tpb's are much more respected.

Jane Doe
Jun 23, 2004, 03:12 am
A well written article, but....I dont know, am I supposed to apologize for liking superheroes? And by saying comics are kiddie stuff what would we be saying about ourselves? That we are immature for liking Spiderman or X-Men? I dont see how this will help. Im sorry I may be a bit lost. If Marvel created more genres in the comic feild for more "serious" readers noses will still be turned up to the superhero genre. Like people who already just read independent publishers. Kind of like with TV and movies. Where shows like Star Trek and Movies like Lord of the Rings get labeled as geek fests and not taken all that seriously. Oh yeah, LOTRs won tons of Oscars but many of the public and the industry think it was a sham (being fantasy oriented, Im not talking about the unbiased that honestly didnt think it was that good). We will never see something like that again in a long time, either. I dont see superhero comics as kiddie stuff or just wam, bam, sock, pow. I see them as drama wrapped up in a more fantastical wrapping. A lot of heart and thought go into creating the characters and storys for the comics in this genre and if people cant appreciate it then thats there problem. I want the argument on why superhero comics can be good and then Ill look at the lack of variety subject.

I quite frankly dont much care anymore what anyone thinks of me liking X-Men and Spiderman, ect. If they want to get all snarky about it then I dont want nothing to do with them anyways. Id probably find them boring (and recommend they remove the stick thats up their but). Besides, usually the kind of people who have dissed my hobby like god awful reality shows and the lastest teen drama. And *I* get problems for my taste? And thats what it comes down to. I mean I dont make them feel like they should hide. No one has to like superheros for me, but they have no right to look down their nose at me like its something to be ashamed of. Like there opinion of comics is law and I should conceal my hobbie like Im some lepper. People are so silly about such little things. Why cant we just enjoy ourselves?

PeteD
Jun 23, 2004, 08:07 am
I love the superhero format and will defend it to anyone using the better examples anytime. It's also nice that the format in it's current style started by Stan Lee in 1961 with characters having more reality in their lives has allowed for a greater variety of storytelling whilst remaining a superhero tale with all the traits associated with it.

That's one reason why the Spider-Man movie was so good, it wasn't afraid to be a superhero comic on the big screen yet it also told a fantastic tale that anyone could enjoy so long as they had the capacity to accept the superhero aspects. Batman on tv in the sixties was the opposite, playing up the camp aspects when the Tim Burton version was the one crying out to be made.

Great column, and I too would also recommend Scott McCloud's book, it really informs on the comic book medium.

'zel-J
Jun 23, 2004, 10:35 am
Great article! I know comics are seen as being at the trashier end of culture just now, but I'm sure that'll change- it might take a century or two, though. There was a time when novels were seen as mind-rotting nonsense suitable only for feather-brained women :rolleyes: while poetry was the stuff for highbrow reading (of course, that was ever so slightly before my time...). All change now, as novels are considered Art (at least, the sort of novels that get shortlisted for the Booker prize...). One day the Eisner Awards may get debated in the broadsheets in the same way as the Booker does now, and we'll have been in on the ground floor ;)

(Yeah, I know, I rather oversimplified the history of the novel there, but would you really want a post that was 100 yards long?!)

Ann Nichols
Jun 23, 2004, 02:51 pm
Originally posted by PeteD
Great column, and I too would also recommend Scott McCloud's book, it really informs on the comic book medium.

Back in 1964 I watched a cartoon called "Space Angel" (like "Clutch Cargo" it used real mouths on the cartoon faces -- weird stuff). The hero's name was Scott McCloud. I wonder if Mr. McCloud's parents were fans.

Zel-J: don't forget that novels were once considered to be corrupting youth (19th century, yes?). Nasty dime novels! Nasty "pulp magazines" -- they're corrupting our youth!
Nasty comic books -- they're corrupting our youth!
Nasty TV -- it's corrupting our youth!

Speaking of the "pulps", I have a book on pulp magazine art that said that one artist's wife burned the paintings he did for pulp covers after he died because she wanted him to be remembered for his "serious art". I'll bet any surviving kinfolk are mad at her now.

Jane Doe
Jun 24, 2004, 02:06 am
Originally posted by Jim Lemoine
And yet, comic books haven't really caught on as a mainstream vehicle for storytelling. Why is that? Is it because comics are arguably not as mentally stimulating as prose, as some have claimed? I tend to doubt it; after all, there's little in the world more mainstream than movies and television, which are easily the least brain-intensive methods of receiving information that have ever been invented. If stories on the screen require absolutely no creative energy on the part of the viewer, why is that method of communication considered more mature than comic books?

Eh, Ive seemed to have went off on a tangent with my last post and only focused on the publics repulsion to comics from the article. Its just so stupidly frusterating sometimes. Anyway, I really agree with you here. People will sooner admit to watching the Jerry Springer show than give comics a try. So, I ultimately think, people want something to complain about so they can single out a group of people. If comics were accepted in Highschool they would lose a lot of punching bags. They like feeling superior. Unfortunately adults arent so different in this compacity either just in a different manner. In my eyes further proof is the fact that they will only accept comics when they are on the big screen played by cool actors and actress' and focused on by the entertainment media and labled the hot flick of the summer. I also think people are sheep and cant decide to like things for themselves, joining the crowd. Controled by their peers and the media. I may sound cynical but this is the only conclusion I could come up with for myself.

An argument I have heard also was all the men and women look like models. And that the female characters are degrading to women. Another argument that doesnt hold water. Considering TV and movies are filled with men and woman that look like models but nobody complains about that, infact they embrace it. And a lot of women are strong in comics where many movies portray them as sex objects. And they have more meat on there bones than a lot of real life actress' I see.


But why have comics been limited to such a small cross-section of the world's literary output? Or, more specifically, the Western world's literary output, since comics, through anime, are a respected part of the mainstream in the East? Why aren't there more romance comics, or horror comics, or historical fiction comics, or non-super-powered adventure comics? And hey, why does it have to be fiction? Why can't history books or books on current events be written as comics? Heck, why aren't How-To books written as comics, since one would think that would make it easiest for the reader to follow along with the instructions?

Again I agree more variety is good. I think I made it sound like I was against it wich Im not. Infact, one of my favorite comics is an indie comic that isnt about superheroes. I just dont want superhero comics to be swept away in some new comic revolution. Id like the readership for superhero comics to strengthen first before they slip through the cracks altogether. I want my Spiderman and X-Men. Theres got to be some potential fans out there. I always wondered why Kevin Smith movies and the movie American Splendor didnt atleast encourage people to try independant labels if spandex wasnt there thing.

Excuse the long posts to anyone Ive annoyed. Ive just been really thinking about this recently, coincidentaly. Its not like I can discuss this anywhere else but a comics forum. :rolleyes:

'zel-J
Jun 24, 2004, 09:54 am
Originally posted by Ann Nichols

Zel-J: don't forget that novels were once considered to be corrupting youth (19th century, yes?).

Absolutely, and now prose literature is seen as Intellectually Improving, and folk encourage their kids to read (no wonder the little scamps turn to arson and vandalism- they were all corrupted by Dickens and Bronte in English class!).


Originally posted by Jane Doe

Excuse the long posts to anyone Ive annoyed. Ive just been really thinking about this recently, coincidentaly. Its not like I can discuss this anywhere else but a comics forum. :rolleyes:

Yipes, when I made that crack about long posts, I didn't mean you Jane! I was thinking of my own posts.

Long post by you: full of opinions and discussion that you've obviously given a lot of thought to. Long post by me: freaky stream-of-consciousness full of bad spelling and worse grammer!

Please accept my humble apologies if my crappy humour hurt or offended you in any way:shame:

By the way, I advise discussing comics with a cat. They are great listeners, and they never contradict your opinions. Plus, they never laugh at you for reading "kids' stuff" ;)

dizfactor
Jun 24, 2004, 01:23 pm
Originally posted by Jim Lemoine
I've heard it argued, especially during several mainstream comic revamps about three years ago, that one of the reasons that comic books were seen so negatively by the rest of the world was because of the total continuity, the long history, in most of the non-kiddie mainstream series. However, that argument doesn't really work either; look at American dramas like 24 or X-Files. The history of the series is all-important, what's gone before influences what comes afterwards, and the series as a whole would be much weaker without drawing on its continuity. Or look at popular, critically-acclaimed British comedies like The Office or Coupling (which is much better than its pathetic American counterpart): these shows let each episode build on the next, letting subplots grow throughout multiple episodes, and trifling matters from the first seasons are even referenced often during the second seasons. No, history, done properly, can only make a story stronger, not weaker, and gives the reader (or viewer) the impression of being caught up in something truly epic.


one thing you're forgetting is that none of those TV shows have been around nearly as long as most average superhero comics and characters, and most of the ones that aren't on the air anymore peaked long before they were cancelled. in the early days of The X-Files, people would crowd around the TV waiting for another morsel about the conspiracy, but by the time it ended, no one gave a damn about the show anymore. the same could be said for Buffy and Angel, or, for an even better example, Twin Peaks. once we found out who killed Laura Palmer, it was basically done, and it didn't last long after that.

continuity can be a good thing, but only to a point. at some point, things become stale, and you need to move on. most DC and Marvel superhero comics are well past that point as far as continuity goes.

there's a "sweet spot" where you have enough continuity to feel a sense of a broader context, but before things start to feel stale.

for continuity to work, you need to have it feel like there's something epic going on, and for something to really work as an epic, you need a few things: real, permanent change has to happen over time, so that actions have consequences, and there needs to be a beginning, a middle, and an end. that way, by the time things are starting to feel like they've been going on forever, there's a sense of resolution, change, and moving on.

part of the reason continuity is such an albatross for contemporary comics is that permanent change doesn't happen, and so you're left with all this pointless, leftover baggage from storylines that ultimately didn't matter anyway.

a possible antidote is to look at things like manga, or Latin American telenovelas. these are serial forms, where there's a sense of continuity, but it's all happening within a limited time, and they are designed to eventually end. you could even look at the Star Wars franchise, where you have an ongoing, open-ended continuity, but it's divided into eras which have beginnings, middles, and ends, and permanent change happens over time.

most American superhero comics, by contrast, don't have a planned end, and therefore everything just goes stale and there's no point to any of the continuity baggage because everything keeps getting reset to the baseline model of whatever character we're talking about. they've long ago passed the point where continuity does anything positive for them in terms of current storylines, but are unwilling to close things off and stop hitting the reset button.

Jane Doe
Jun 25, 2004, 12:09 am
Not to worry zel-J, I wasnt mad at you and I didnt think you were pointing me out! I always realize that my posts tend to be long at times. Plus, I was thinking back at a bitter recent memory related to this topic. And I dont think theres anything wrong with your posts either.

On the cat idea. I already talk to her so I might as well talk about something more than the weather, lol. ;)

Anand Khatri
Jun 25, 2004, 12:48 am
Great Article! Its really food for thought.

UltimateFan
Jun 25, 2004, 01:24 am
Originally posted by Jim Lemoine
There are two mainstream authors who I've always felt were amazingly well-suited to become comic writers: Ann Coulter and Al Franken.

Funny, because Franken's book, Lies and the Lying Liars who Tell Them, contains some comic-book-style material, including one entire chapter that's little more than what could be called a "graphic short story".

Shiva
Jun 27, 2004, 08:38 pm
Comics are alot of things but they arent trash like some might say! i think they are more of stress relievers than anything else!

Ricky
Jun 29, 2004, 12:06 pm
for continuity to work, you need to have it feel like there's something epic going on, and for something to really work as an epic, you need a few things: real, permanent change has to happen over time, so that actions have consequences, and there needs to be a beginning, a middle, and an end. that way, by the time things are starting to feel like they've been going on forever, there's a sense of resolution, change, and moving on.

part of the reason continuity is such an albatross for contemporary comics is that permanent change doesn't happen, and so you're left with all this pointless, leftover baggage from storylines that ultimately didn't matter anyway.

You're talking right from the heart of my soul

Jen Renee
Jun 29, 2004, 10:52 pm
A very well written article. :clap:

'zel-J
Jun 30, 2004, 09:47 am
Originally posted by dizfactor

part of the reason continuity is such an albatross for contemporary comics is that permanent change doesn't happen, and so you're left with all this pointless, leftover baggage from storylines that ultimately didn't matter anyway.


It's a catch-22, isn't it- if big changes happen in a title, there'll be an uproar from certain sections of the fan community. But if there is no change, other people are disappointed. I can see why publishers stick to minor tinkering for the most part; they try to please most people and avoid alienating them, so as to keep selling their products. Sadly, big business is often the enemy of risk-taking creativity.

Originally posted by Jane Doe
Not to worry zel-J, I wasnt mad at you and I didnt think you were pointing me out! ... Plus, I was thinking back at a bitter recent memory related to this topic.

:D Ah, thats good Jane, I'd hate to have upset a fellow dragon ;) But what's with the bitter memories? I sense gossip here- go on, spill (but just the beans); you'll feel better for it! ;)

crozack
Jul 10, 2004, 06:31 pm
Good article, Jim, but with superhero movies currently kicking ass at the box office, the superhero genre is rapidly changing. It's no longer embarrassing to wear that Spider-Man t-shirt around. Superheroes are changing.

Of course, does this mean that comics are more respected? Sure. Does this mean that comics are going to be read by more people? No. So, I guess it doesn't matter that superheroes are changing and becoming more widely accepted.

We all know that comics are disrespected, we all know that it is a perfectly valid form of storytelling. I got my girlfriend and her sister to read Watchemen and The Authority and each thought it was fantastic. They've both said to me that they've been brought to light about how comics are acceptable, when before they believed them to be up there with Star Trek and those other geeks (which tells you alot about Star Trek, unfortunately). However, both have said that they would never spend money on them regularly.

And THIS, I feel, is the most pressing problem with comics today. Let's face it: why do most Westerners love television and movies? Because they're cheap and readily available. A movie for eight bucks. Digital Cable for twenty bucks a month. If you have Netflix, that gives you unlimited DVDs each month.

But comics? There's probably a lame rack at the local bookstore. The comic shops are so confounding and unhelpful and stocked with action figures and busts that it rarely gets new readers to enter. It's the same problem that is happening to the newspaper and newsmagazine business.

I disagree when you say that Vertigo is the best chance for comics to branch. Of course it isn't. People love Spidey, Batman, the X-Men and Blade. They'll read them if they just get their attention hooked at an easy price and readily available location.

It's not to say that comics should only focus on superheroes. Of course not, but once one is fully entrenched with Spider-Man, why would they want to check out Blaze of Glory, you know what I'm saying? It's all about bringing attention to the comics.

Solution? Well, the trades would be the way to go. Offer six comics in trade form at an affordable ten bucks. But, that won't have the monthly format if subscriptions are wanted. So, what to do?

Commercials. There you go. I said it. TokyoPop has recently put commercials on American television (watch Adult Swim on Cartoon Network and you're sure to see some) and that made me want to go read some manga immediately! I never buy manga! (again, only because I am entrenched in the X-Men, Hulk, Cap, etc.) Also, the dotcomics that Marvel started has got to be played up. Put 'E is For Extinction' on the site for free then say, if you liked this, how about trying 'Assault on Weapon X'?

Comics can be saved. It's all about bringing the public to realize that comics aren't for kids and aren't just silly people in costumes.