REEDING INTO THINGS #23: X-TREME ISSUES

[Joel Phillips]

<img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/images/columns/ritlogo.jpg" align=left width=115 height=100 border=0 alt="Reeding Into Things">By Joel Phillips, old_ky_shark@hotmail.com

X-Treme Issues


I have previously written columns laying out some of my problems with Grant Morrison’s New X-Men (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18439) and Chuck Austen's Uncanny X-Men (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20440). Now it’s time to complete the set, and tell you what I find lacking in Chris Claremont’s X-Treme X-Men.

This is the hardest of the three columns to write, for two reasons. The first is human: Claremont has built up a lot of good will with me, and many others, for his work in years past. The second reason is that, while reading X-Treme X-Men, I find myself more dissatisfied with the work than disliking it. Whereas the worst of Austen or Morrison’s writing is/was truly awful, Claremont’s X-Treme X-Men simply falls flat: it fails to attain either great highs or lows, but simply occupies an uninspiring middle ground.

I won’t lie: a big part of my problem with Claremont’s work is that it’s nowhere near as good as what he did during his first run. Placing that expectation on him is unfair, and it’s an impulse I fight where I can, but it does still exist. Though the greatness of Claremont’s original run can, at times, work against Claremont’s current efforts, it can also work in its favor. I like Claremont’s oft-mocked wordy style (most of the time), and the feel he has for these characters remains as sharp as it was during his decade and a half leading this franchise.

So what’s the problem? Well at the top of the list is the same problem I have previously directed at Grant Morrison: Claremont’s X-Treme run really isn’t anything new, just a different spin on some older stories and ideas. I found Morrison’s variations on these stories to be mostly dull, repetitive, and lacking for imagination, even though he was writing them in his own different style. Claremont’s revisiting of the classics he wrote, in the same style they were originally written in, comes off as even more stale and unoriginal.

Consider the Invasion arc, which in itself makes up nearly one fourth of the entire run of the title. What was new there that we hadn’t seen from Claremontian X-Men before? Storm, powerless and alone, using nothing but wits and her will to stay alive, and all while handling the advances of a villain that wants her to be his bride… come on, Chris. You’ve dipped into this well a few too many times, don’t you think? It’s a tired character motivation we can live without. (You’d think after all these years SOMEONE would try to make, say, Rogue their bride instead, but that never seems to happen.)

What’s more, the often praised X-Treme villains are just updated versions of old Claremont X-villains. What makes Bogan now different from the Shadow King back in the day? A connection to Sage, but that’s about it. And the original villains only manage to be original because they lack sufficient definition to be accused of copying anyone else. Vargas is a generic tough guy with a sword… for someone who spent the first half of the series as the closest thing the team had to an archenemy, you’d think we’d have some vague idea about what he is, how he’s so powerful, or what he really wants. The bits of motivation we got during Invasion were vague, probably deliberately so, but then Vargas died (unless he didn’t) and we haven’t heard from him since.

Which brings me to another problem with X-Treme X-Men: the lack of purpose. The team’s original purpose was to find Destiny’s Diaries, but they were sidetracked by Gambit (in just the second arc of the title, for those keeping score) and they never got back to it. They just wandered aimlessly from one mission to the next until Arena, when they started the whole X.S.E. thing. Of course how the X.S.E. differs substantively from the X-Corporation (or the X-Men themselves, for that matter) is a mystery to me… and I read the story. But by then the decision had already been made to cancel the title, so maybe it wasn’t worth it at that point to give the team a real purpose.

Unfortunately, the lack of a purpose translates to a lack of any sense of relevance or importance to the stories. Good, bad or indifferent, characters and their lives are changing through both Morrison’s and Austen’s work. What’s changed for Storm’s team? Rogue and Gambit lost their powers, but who thinks that will last? Right now it looks as if Storm’s team will, in some capacity, be realigning themselves with the “main” X-Men come Reload, which to me is a pretty good indicator that the entire X-Treme X-Men run is going to be treated as little more than an extended leave of absence for the characters, one whose events can be completely ignored should subsequent writers choose to do so.

Which brings up another sticking point: stories that don’t go anywhere. The first arc built up to Betsy’s death, but that’s really the only story that built to anything. The second arc ended abruptly because Shaw got away. Invasion, despite lasting a full ten issues (including the aftermath issues), went absolutely nowhere: the characters were up against impossible odds one minute, then they just spontaneously won. The turnaround from “we can’t possibly win” to “so we won, huh?” was a matter of pages.

But at least Invasion finished the job, even if it hurried through the finale. After that we had Schism and Intifada and Arena, none of which really resolved any of the conflicts they raised… they merely put off settling things until a later date. And in the middle we had God Loves, Man Kills II, which I’m still not sure even counts as a story, since I think stories require a beginning, middle and end, at least two of which were missing from those issues.

If the stories aren’t really moving towards any kind of future, at least Claremont is a master of the past, right? Well no, it doesn’t seem he is anymore. Claremont has, from time to time, violated both his own continuity and, more commonly, the continuity that has accumulated since his original departure. Different readers place different levels of importance on this, and my own views on the issue of continuity have been well documented. Personally I cringe when Masque shows up alive, with different powers, and a woman (or a transsexual with a poor explanation, whichever). I cringe even more when the same people who tore into Grant Morrison for his mysterious resurrection of Unus say Masque’s inexplicable return is “not a big deal”. That makes fans guilty of hypocrisy, and makes Claremont guilty of disrespecting both his own continuity and that which has come since.

What’s more, the best part of Claremont’s original run is completely absent here: change. That’s not really his fault: Claremont CAN’T evolve these characters the way he used to, because Marvel won’t allow him to do so. In fact, no writer since Claremont’s first run has really been allowed to change this franchise in more than superficial ways… hence the stagnation of the line.

Which pretty much brings me back around to the ever-growing dissatisfaction I have over the entire X-Men franchise. We’re left with stories that don’t draw effectively on the past, don’t inspire in the present, and won’t have any substantive effect on the future. The end result is an overriding feeling of “who cares?”, one which makes it an easy call for me to bid the franchise farewell when Reload comes around.

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Joel Phillips would like to thank Cannonball 1138 for suggesting the title of this edition of RIT.

The opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the writer, and are not reflective of ComiX-Fan or its other staff in general.

[GambitXtreme]

I think a lot of what you said was very insightful. That being said, I don't necessarily disagree with you... BUT!

As far as characterization, Chris Claremont is the king at writing these particular X-Men. He made Bishop go from a second rate, cheesy 1990s bad ass from the future who happens to not only be African American, but sports a mullet as well, and made the character make sense in the here and now.

While he, admittedly, hasn't given Gambit a real starring role (until last issue when he stomps on Bishop) he made my favorite character mysterious and exciting again.

Cannonball, Storm and Sage have also gone through monsterous amounts of character development. Sage didn't really ever have a chance as Tessa.

So, I think this book became PHENOMONAL. When Schism began. I think God Loves, Man Kills 2 was kind of forced, but still a good story, but Intifada was great, and Eyes of Fire has thus far been amazing... Story wise.

Art wise, from Issue #1 until the end of the Schism and the Cannonball stand alone issue, Sal Larrocca drew absolutely stunning renditions of these characters.

The Invasion story was extremely long and drawn out, but it's after effect I enjoyed. It made Rogue and Gambit in particular more fleshy and fun to read.

I don't know, I think Claremont is still, by far, the best. But, I agree that the first few arcs were all over the place and it didn't get really good until AFTER Invasion.

That being said, this is my favorite series. And I really enjoyed Schism, Prisoner of Fire and Intifada for their purely great stories, even if Igor Kordey's art wasn't up to the highest standards.

[Mark]

i however, do not.

[crbinva]

Originally posted by Joel Phillips
What’s more, the best part of Claremont’s original run is completely absent here: change. That’s not really his fault: Claremont CAN’T evolve these characters the way he used to, because Marvel won’t allow him to do so. In fact, no writer since Claremont’s first run has really been allowed to change this franchise in more than superficial ways… hence the stagnation of the line.

Exellent point - good article.

CRB

[Filthy Mutie]

I don't have too much to comment on in regard to the whole Claremont issue--since I totally agree and haven't bought a single TPB from this run--but that closing is really what it comes down to.

In fact, you could've do an entire article on the stagnation of the line, or Marvel in general. This is actually what got me into the Ultimate books.

Yeah, sure, they're retelling of older stories in many cases, but there is usually at least "just enough" twist on it to still make it interesting. Plus, on the next page someone gets decapitated, and you have a pretty good, secure feeling that it will stay that way. So, as long as you're interested in the books in the first place, you're not saying "who cares" because the line hasn't (yet) been tainted like the 616 line has.

Anyway, moving right along...

[Sage4ever]

Good article, but I really think that most of the criticisms here are less than applicable to the current arc. I personally like that things don't get sorted in a handy six-issue fit for tpb arc. Wasn't that what made his first run amazing, the eventual pay offs? I also think that accusing Chris of not changing the X-men right after stating that they were in search of the diaries but then changed to become the XSE to be a bit off. X-corp defends mutants, the XSE serves and protects human-beings, mutant and non mutant alike. That's a fundamental difference right there. No mention of the fact that these characters feel like a family. No mention of the great moments of interaction with issue #19 being a monument to this. No mention that stylistically, X-treme #1 resembles nothing to X-treme #42 largely due to the fact that CC took on board the "wordy" criticisms. This issue, as with the ones that went before it, are based on perspective so I don't think either of us are wrong.

The end result is an overriding feeling of ?who cares??

I do. I care a lot. And for like-minded people see the X-treme thread. X-treme X-men will be sorely missed and I just hope that CC can keep up the momentum he has built over X-treme's run and continue them in Uncanny and Excalibur.

[NicholasRogue]

Originally posted by Joel Phillips
&lt;img src=&quot;http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/images/columns/ritlogo.jpg&quot; align=left width=115 height=100 border=0 alt=&quot;Reeding Into Things&quot;&gt;By Joel Phillips, old_ky_shark@hotmail.com

(You’d think after all these years SOMEONE would try to make, say, Rogue their bride instead, but that never seems to happen.)




Best part of your article Joel!!! LOL :rogue: Why the hell can't she be wanted for some bad guy's bride like Storm too :LOL: I agree with alot of what you're saying, but I do think that Invasion was good. I felt at the end you were a bit harsh basically summing up that any new writer can just treat this entire series like it never actually happened... that's not fair!;) But I get what you're saying. Yeah the whole Masque thing I didn't get, and Claremont accidentally called Ororo's father whose name is David, John in XXM #18 in the afterlife scene. I wish the purpose of the team had stayed on the focus of Destiny's Diaries. True we know from Rogue in XXM #17 that once Sage jumpstarted her she was able to access them through the memories through her imprinted powers of Destiny...but did those memories go away when she lost her powers? Vargas I think would have been a better villain if he had been who Sage suggested he was in XXM#3- The Xavier Protocals made flesh- if the Professor really thought they'd betray him he could send this guy after them. I wanted to know more about his past, more than just him seeing in Irene's prediction that Rogue would one day kill him so he had to instead kill her first. The God Loves Man Kills II arc I think was purely for the sake to try to get fans of the new X-Men 2 movie tied into the book....it did focus on Kitty and had great characterization and good pencils from Kordey in my opinion. Arena did nothing for me. I really liked the X-Pose 2 parter- I think it was original and insightful.....I wish the current series would acknowledge the X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001 with Rogue and the Shadow King....Intifada I thought whoever was very original and a great read- but I would have preferred if "Prisoner of Fire" had followed it instead of the Arena...The Austrailian gangs/Shaw/Gambit saga issues #5-9 were okay-- I think it added more tension adding the Camerons to the books, I would have liked to see Thunderbird evolve more, but he just up and quit along with Heather and Davis. The X.S.E. idea would have been great- have them actually have government ties and jurisdiction over what they do- the X-Men are public- make themselves public as well. I liked that the Invasion from Dimension X storyline showed the X-Men on the media but then again this was already done way back in the Fall of the Mutants storyline, but I agree its hard to come up with new and original storylines...and Invasion is one of my favorite stories....X-Treme X-Men has been a great title- it kept the X-Men true to themselves, but it hid them from their nature...evolution. I personally liked them splitting off from the team, b/c in my mind Chuck is and always will be CRAZY!!!!!!! lol. I mean he could destroy them all in an instant- maybe Storm and Sage are smart to be so paranoid about him. The series has been great... I can't wait for the last 4 issues. I hope they tie up all the loose ends of the series.

[salvador]

Well, I must say, many things you wrote can be also said about both New and Uncanny. But I do see points in X-Treme X-Men's story and I think that often this series has been - as in being - more enjoyable than the other 2 core books. Morover I think the whole series won't be forgotten at all in the future, as Claremont come back to 2 core series, Uncanny and Excalibur, so he can evolve the concepts he created for stories and characters. This last storyarc is the best until now, we have a strong team, which characters that even if created in the last year are already interesting - at least IMHO - as Vange Whedon and Marie D'Acanto. And I think that also with old characters is doing a great job. Of course, there are weak points like GLMKII or Arena, but only seeing the main plot, which is Spain-Australia-Invasion-Schism-Intifada-Prisoner of fire, we have a strong series with coherent evolution in the stories and in the characters. For example, I think that X-Treme #16 and 17 are two of the best Claremont issues, and I can't say we don't see a point in characters' actions, see for example Rogue and Gambit and their relationship. Of course, I know this is not a process to Claremont and there are only opinions, but I think that the only, real weakness in the series is Marvel treatment, not allowing very interesting storyarc. Something I really, really hope we won't see no more with the Reload and Claremont back to Uncanny. And for the changement point - well, if think that Claremont is truly the most revolutionary creator, more than Morrison too - and I love Morrison's run - and he has so many interesting ideas but... I think that Marvel will never allow most of Claremont's stories 'cause lately Marvel seems to adopt the "Nothing-must-change-or-new-writers-won't-enjoy-the-stories" ideal. But a series, or a whole comics universe, which doesn't evolve in the time, is already dead. But - you know - this is a Marvel's decision and we can just hope that trought this decisions we'll be however able to read some good stuff. And I think is what we read with X-Treme.
That's it! Wow, this is my longest message ever on this forum!

[Paul Shinn]

Interesting column Joel, and I don't even read X-Treme!

Originally posted by Joel Phillips
Which brings me to another problem with X-Treme X-Men: the lack of purpose. The team’s original purpose was to find Destiny’s Diaries, but they were sidetracked by Gambit (in just the second arc of the title, for those keeping score) and they never got back to it. They just wandered aimlessly from one mission to the next until Arena, when they started the whole X.S.E. thing.

...which is what I unfortunately forsee happening with Excalibur! I'll admit the initial premise does sound intriguing, and different from the other X-titles, but I really don't see it being too long before this title loses sight of its original mission statement too.

What’s more, the best part of Claremont’s original run is completely absent here: change. That’s not really his fault: Claremont CAN’T evolve these characters the way he used to, because Marvel won’t allow him to do so. In fact, no writer since Claremont’s first run has really been allowed to change this franchise in more than superficial ways… hence the stagnation of the line.

Which pretty much brings me back around to the ever-growing dissatisfaction I have over the entire X-Men franchise. We’re left with stories that don’t draw effectively on the past, don’t inspire in the present, and won’t have any substantive effect on the future. The end result is an overriding feeling of “who cares?”, one which makes it an easy call for me to bid the franchise farewell when Reload comes around.

...so true! I've found myself increasingly uninterested by the X-titles as a whole, and you appear to have hit the nail right on the head. Nothing that happens has any real consequence! We hear all the time from the editors how this next arc is going to have a real impact upon the X-universe, and what happens? Six months later the status quo is returned and we've all forgotten about whatever it was that happened. No matter how many times the X-titles branch off into "All new, All Different" territory, it always comes back to the "All-Tried, All-Tested" formula.

The X-men as a concept is all about change, but until the titles really start to reflect this change, then what's the point?

Oh, and just one question:

The first arc built up to Betsy’s death, but that’s really the only story that built to anything.

Didn't Betsy's death occur at the end of #2? Not much of a build up was it? ;)

[Cannonball1138]

Joel Phillips would like to thank Cannonball 1138 for suggesting the title of this edition of RIT.

Score! :D

I agree with the sentiment that X-Treme isn't bad, just plain. It's always "been there, done that" it seems with X-Treme. Plus Claremont sometimes turns the book into "Storm and her friends" which I'd like to see less of, considering Cannonball is much more interesting. :p

[Anthony Lucynski]

you know, everything in this article is why I dont like X-treme. It's why I picked it up, gave it almost a year, dropped it, picked it up again towards the end of invasion, and dropped it halfway through god loves man kills the sequal.

It's just not exciting. it's not extreme. It's rather boring.

With pretty art sometimes.

It's why i concur, Reload will not be reloading with me on board.

If all it has to offer is Claremont and Austen, with the Buffy guy coming in for good measure, this fan of the X-Men (15 plus years) is gone.

X-treme could of been great, the first few issues had me so hooked.

And then.....nada.

Anthony L

[Nick Costanzo]

Originally posted by Joel Phillips
The end result is an overriding feeling of “who cares?”, one which makes it an easy call for me to bid the franchise farewell when Reload comes around.

On the one hand, congratulations on NAILING the big problem I have with this title and all the X-Titles right now. On the other hand, damn you for being right :(

When the writers change everything that happened in the past, be it in this book or New/Uncanny, will be either forgotten or possibly even directly discounted (I so cringed reading Whedon's preview script, in which seems to be the anti-E is for Extinction). So why bother? These titles will never change at this rate. I could stop reading for years (which I've done) and come back to find all the characters exactly the same as before (which they were). There isn't a point to reading these books anymore, and that's a very sad thing.

[MaggottFanMan]

I agree partially. I thought that up until Schism it was an excellent title. I though Invasion was an excellent story whether it did a lot that will be long term rememberable or not it was worth the money I paid. I was entertained. Now once Igor came on, this is not a jab at him either, I lost interest in the title. It was a combination of what I felt was a lack of interesting story and art I don't really care for. So to an extent I agree with your complaints but to say the whole series was a throw away is somehting I disagree on.

[Toga]

Good article Joel, i totally agree with you on ur points. i dropped the book after the first issue of the second art, no beast, no betsy, and then he included gambit, i just couldn't win. Unlike you Anthony i will give reload a try, looking forward to excalibur for some stange reason that's unknown to me, and i really wanna see what Whedons gonna do with these teams, and if i'm not impressed good bye x-men.

[Vector]

Nice article Joel.

I agree that XXM lost it's focus for a while, but it was still fun for me.


My favorite part of X-Treme has to be the development of my now favorite character Sage. I think what he has done with her has been really great.

I also think the recent growth shown by Cannonball is worth mentioning. I know he has led before, but this time he seems to actually be stepping up to the plate. He doesn't seem like a New Mutant anymore.

We've also seen some changes in Rogue. Sure, some don't like her new name and her lack of powers, but I enjoy seeing her gradually lose her angst become a happier person.


As for Bogan, we really don't know that much about him yet. sure, he's similar to the SK, but he's not a carbon copy.

I wish we could have seen what XXM would have been like without the heavy editorial influence, forced stories, and character theft. Hopefully Chris will be given more freedom with Excalibur and Uncanny.

Sure, GLMK2 and The Arena were low points, but I think Intifada was a good indication that things were beginning to pick up.
The Arena wasn't even supposed to be a part of XXM, but the geniuses at Marvel decided to shove it in and interrupt the transition from Intifada to Prisoner of Fire. I believe GLMK2, which he was asked to write, also interrupted the flow of Chris's plans for Schism/Intifada/Prisoner of Fire.

I'm not sure if this is the best whay to say this but... I feel that XXM has had a stronger sense of family and friendship than the other two titles. To me thats important, to others maybe not so much. I guess I'm more attached to the characters (especially the ones in XXM) than the normal reader, I dont know.

Once again, I'm very thankful to have gotten Sage out of all this. :cheers:

I think Chris has taken a lot of criticism with XXM and as far as I know he has handled it with dignity and dash of humor.

Once again, good article Joel.

[Mitch Brown]

Originally posted by GambitXtreme
I

As far as characterization, Chris Claremont is the king at writing these particular X-Men. He made Bishop go from a second rate, cheesy 1990s bad ass from the future who happens to not only be African American, but sports a mullet as well, and made the character make sense in the here and now.

I thought what we learnt about Bishop is that he is actually of Australian Aboriginal descent :)

Joel - I totally agree with you on this one, even if I don't see eye-to-eye on your assessments of New.

I really want to love X-Treme but..I just can't. It's not bad by any means. It just, as you say, falls flat. I find myself loving the beginning of each arc, but then unfortunately feeling somewhat cheated by the resolution (Excepting Invasion - I actuallly truly enjoyed that one). Who the hell was Vargas? What was his point? Bogan = Shadow King, but less interesting.

What's truly positive about the title though is the character interaction (always Chris' strong point). Bishop and Sage are two characters I thought I'd never care about, but CC has turned them into two of my favourite X-Men. Cannonball is spot-on - this is how Sam should've been his first time in the X-Men.

[PsiWar]

while i may disagree with you on some points with your article on Morrison...i do agree with you on this one.

yes, Mr. C did fall flat.

which makes me wonder, is it because of his lack of exciting ideas? or is it because of the dictates of the conservative management?

Marvel should realize the risks they should take if they want to succeed.

yes, Mr. C did fall flat, but thank God he did waaaaaaaaay better than Austen.

the oft-mocked wordy style? some phrases and descriptions get repeated soo many times that it becomes annoying. i remember reading Psylocke's description in X-treme 2?.and i was saying to myself wasn't this kinda used in Uncanny 271?...only some of the words have changed?

hmmm.

mwah.

[Dylan McKay]

I can't help but question how Sam was developped at all? He was just written properly, but there was no advancement on what Nicieza, Moore and Ellis did with the character...

[bigveney]

I see what you're talking about, but in life the more things change, the more they stay the same, bottom line is that Claremont is an excellent writer.

[Patrick James]

Joel, great sense to finally get this X-Treme article off your back before the series bit the big one. And kudos too for saying what I've been trying not to think out loud for the entire run of this book.:clap:

[Queen Artemisn]

Great article!!!! It's really sad, but when I think back on the entire run of X-treme, there is nothing in the run that makes me want to go back and reread it.

And I'm really glad to see someone able to write fairly about Claremont without allowing his first run of the X-men to influence the article.

[Airhead]

Good article!:D

[Bill]

As a long-time Claremont fan (gosh -- it's what -- 20 years or so by now), I would say that your article hits the nail on the head in many ways. I often feel that I continue to read Claremont stories more out of a sense of duty and honor and respect than because they're truly amazing. Your comments about change and evolution (or the lack thereof) are right on the money. I would think it must be very frustrating for Claremont to operate in a situation in which it is very difficult, if not outright impossible, to show character development and growth. That's what made Thunderbird and Heather and Davis interesting -- these were new, fresh characters, that could go in any number of directions. But now, for whatever reason, they're off in character limbo.

Some of your comments (esp. pertaining to the changing sense of direction/purpose to the book over time) probably have a good deal to do with the fairly constant editorial turnover the book experienced.

There's also no question, at least in my mind, that Claremont works very well with certain artists and not well at all with others. The first 24 issues of this title -- with Salvador Larroca -- were often stunning. Since issue 25, I feel it's been rather ho-hum. Claremont often talks about the synergy that develops between writers and artists, with each one inspiring the best work in the other. I think that happened with Claremont and Larroca. I don't see that happening with Claremont and Kordey, despite the fact that Claremont has praised Kordey's work on a number of occasions. Here's to hopes that the Claremont/Davis and Claremont/Lopresti combinations will both rock, and that both partnerships will last a good long time. And, while we're at it, let's hope he gets an editor that sticks with both books for a long time!

Bill Pinches
webmaster for The Chris Claremont Checklist
www.chrisclaremontchecklist.org

[roach]

I think the biggest problem with Xtreme is that Claremont is being forced into a writing style that isn't his own.CC's style is long drawn out arcs that reach fruition several years down the road.Marvel locked him into six ish storyarc to sell TPb's anh his writing suffered.

[Suzene]

Excellent work, Joel, and I think you've got it just right.

Suzene

[cicada rosa]

Some very good points made, many of which are true. I enjoyed up to about the end of God Loves 2, and really hated arena. But Claremont is still a great writer, and it's generally his characterizion that gets him over the line with me.

I agree with Bill, there just wasn't a writer/ artist synergy between Claremont and Kordey. They just didn't meld right. It was hard to get as excited without Larocca on board, because the artist just fit the writer so well. Hopefully Lopestri will!

And if i was crazy and trying to rule our dimension, I know I'd try to make Rouge my Queen rather then Storm,hands down!

;)

[Wheeze]

Good article, although personally I wouldn't be as kind in some areas. As much as I love Claremont's old stuff, X-Treme has (since moment one) been a sub-par book at best, taking liberties with characters that I felt weren't warranted, and providing virtually nothing in the form of advancement or creativity. Probably the biggest offense was God Loves, Man Kills 2 (just adding a 2 to that practically cheapens the original for starters). It was quite possibly the sloppiest X-Men story I had ever read, but thankfully it was only on the shelf at the comic shop (while I was picking up my Uncanny and back issues).

That said, I always give new X-Books a chance, and even though I think Claremont needs to be removed from the X-Books soon, I'll be reading Excalibur and Uncanny.

[dopplegager]

The first arc built up to Betsy’s death, but that’s really the only story that built to anything.

it was also a pointless death that dissapointed some fan and really ticked me off since now all three of my favorate characters are dead.:colossus: :mk: :betsy:

I enjoyed the whole run of xtreme x-men until the arena. the only issue I don't have is the anual. Couldn't find it so I can't say anything abut it.

I also used to look forward each month to Salvador's art. That's what brought me back to comics. Nothing against Igor's art but I did not look forward to looking at it.

Chris will now have a little more freedom since he will have two titles and more characters to work with. mayve the should give him X-men also. But marvel have been pretty uptight with things in the marvel universe. Writers don't have the freedom that they had in the early ninetys and earlier. About the only interestig things that have happened lately is origin and the ultimate lines.

[distortion]

Gotta say Joel, thats exactly what i'm coming to grips with. And the more i look over the x-books of today, the more i think, maybe its time to put them down. I'm just not getting the same charge out of them that i used to. Instead i've found that elsewhere.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

great article, and i agree with several points. I've been hot and...well...not, cold. Tepid? Lukewarm? eh, anyway...i've been varied with this title. It's had some amazing single issues and the beginnings of stories often have me REALLY pumped...only to peter out in the end. That's probably my biggest problem with the book...start out big, keep it going for a bit...but then no "WOW!" moment to wrap it all up. Either there's a quick and rather easy resolution or everything's put off until next time...(suddenly had an amusing image of Bogan on his front porch, shaking his shadowy fist..."One of these days you X-Tremers...I'll get you, if it's the last thing i dooooooo!")

still, it's been entertaining and the flaws seem to be progressively self correcting themselves. so i think it's kind of nifty that this title gets swept aside and Claremont gets a bit of a fresh start and two new titles to explore his ideas in. Excalibur has me intrigued as all get out...and i haven't seen Alan Davis's recent work so i'm curious to see what he can do now that the X-Men have progressed a bit beyond "just superheroes" (despite Marvel's efforts to shoehorn them back into that role :rolleyes: ). So i'll be here, not jazzed but somewhat excited for Reload. the only title giving me pause is X-Men right now...thank God CC's getting Nightcrawler. :)

[seth_raditz]

Originally posted by Joel Phillips
Claremont CAN’T evolve these characters the way he used to, because Marvel won’t allow him to do so. In fact, no writer since Claremont’s first run has really been allowed to change this franchise in more than superficial ways… hence the stagnation of the line.

very interesting point. never really though about it in this way.

good article.

[Roguefan]

Well, speaking as someone who's only just recently started reading Western comics (2-3 years) to any great extent, of all the titles on my pull-list every week, the two that constantly came to the top were Xtreme and Emma Frost. And ever since I started reading them, I've looked forward to each and every issue without fail. And each and every time I wasn't disappointed. Chris Claremont is a great writer, probably one of the greatest fiction writers I've ever read. Xtreme had everything one could wish for in a superhero comic - great characterisation, great dialogue, great artwork, great interaction and some fabulous scenes. I think that, moreso then Grant Morrison, Chris Claremont has done a lot more 'ground-breaking' stuff. If anything, he made me enjoy reading superhero books. Sure, I started reading New because I'd heard great things about Grant Morrison, and I picked up Uncanny because it was - well - Uncanny - the original core X-book. But of all the three core-books, the only one I actually went out of my way to get and read was Xtreme. And when Igor Korday came on board as a replacement for Salvadro Larocca, I couldn't be happier. His artwork brought a gritty realism that the book desperately needed. And the best damn rendering of Rogue I'd ever seen. A lot of other fans went out of their way to condemn Igor Korday, but I felt that he was a much better artist then Salvador Larocca. His characters actually looked real, and provided a perfect complement to CC's characterisation. Sure, his action scenes migh have look a little awkward, but, for this fanboy at least, the characterisation was what made the book.

If there were any flaws in the book, then I would place the blame squarely at Marvel's doorstep. To them, the X-men are a brand. And the strength of any tried and trusted brand is the feeling of familiarlity that it would elicit. And it is because of this feeling of familiarity that the X-men haven't been allowed to evolve. It is a deliberate attempt on Marvels part to ensure the continuation of their brand. And no matter how many reloads or reboots they trumpet, the overall feeling will be one of stagnation and sameness. Unless there is a change in operating practices, the X-men will not evolve and their creators, such as CC and Igor Korday will not be able to fully extend their creative wings and truly demonstrate the greatness that they are fully capable of.

Y'know, it's true for DC when they say that their universe is 'the original universe'

[Anthony Lucynski]

I think the biggest problem with Xtreme is that Claremont is being forced into a writing style that isn't his own.CC's style is long drawn out arcs that reach fruition several years down the road.Marvel locked him into six ish storyarc to sell TPb's anh his writing suffered.

That's bull. He's not being forced to write anything. Other writers have the same type of structure, and they work with it and still manage to tell wonderful stories.. Nobody is forcing Mr. Claremont to work at Marvel. If that's the structure, if that really is what's causing this, then Chris needs to leave Marvel and find work at one of the many, many comic companies out there where he can write how he chooses.

Anthony L

[brownfirex]

Yeah I have to agree with previous posters that CC or any other writer is forced to the constraints of Marvel's editors or marketers.

You look at Xtreme & the Exiles, two fringe titles that dont contain movie/fanboy fav's but during its run (& current run on the Exiles) these titles have manage to captivate interest which Marvel doesnt really care about.

I mean how much could CC do when he has editors who are more concerned about the image of their "core books", I think they hobble these fringe books as long as they dont outshine or worse out sell books that they want to project as "THE IMAGE MARVEL BOOK".

[Vector]

Originally posted by brownfirex

You look at Xtreme &amp; the Exiles, two fringe titles that dont contain movie/fanboy fav's

Huh? X-treme has definately had some fanboy fav's on its roster, and still does. ;)

[Merlin]

Alright I see what you mean
X-Treme has not had much of a direction
but I still have enjoyed it.
All your piont are correct not much has really happened
From the solisitations for Uncanny and since Sage, Storm and ohter X-treme characters are on Uncanny I think maybe the split between X-treme from the rest of the X-men will continue into Uncanny (well maybe) and that would count as a change

One problem with X-treme has been this many various change in editors. As well marvels hypocracy. Chris wanted Psylocke to come back marvel said NO. Other writers want other dead character to come back to life so marvel says YES.
I kinda hope that Gambit and Rogue don't get there powers back for a loooong time. maybe a couple years. When they first lost it I thought it would not last but so far it has and I hope it stays that way.

One reason that this comic has had problems is that stories have had to be changed.
First - Chris had about a years worth of Beast stories but then Morrison wanted Hank so he had to leave. Chris had a Psylocke resurection story that was not allowed by marvel. GLMKII wasn't really supposed to happen. It should have been Shcism, Infitada, Six million then Bogan then ???? Arena as a mini or graphic novel.
Instead it became Shcism, GLMKII, Intifada, Arena, Bogan and then cancelled.

But this series did have Sage. who is a great character. That is a redeeming quality of this comic. As well as Slavadors great art. Kordey was good but Salvadors art on this comic was great.

[Jeanne]

I think it's somewhat unfair to want change for change's sake alone. To demand that Claremont change 'something', and something significant, without asking what you want changed. And then, as some have done, to demand that he leave the franchise if it doesn't provide 'change' in the way you want it.

Xmen has an appeal that is time tested. It has lasted for many years, building on some intangable 'thing' that people want to read. What is that 'thing'? You cannot say that it is simply change itself...the entire franchise has remained basically consistant over the years. Instead, to me it seems to be the action, relationships, and the 'superhero story' that keeps drawing in audiences.

If you demand to see unsubtle, big-time change, you are saying that the core piece that is the nature of these comics has lost its appeal to you and you're eager to try something different. You are Jaded to this particular genre and type of story. That's fine! It's not a bad thing at all. Every real person grows up and have their tastes change with time and long exposure. No one reads Hardy Boy books or Star Trek novels forever. But if that is the case, then why demand that a title or a genre become something that it is not in order to 'follow' you to your next stage of reading? Why don't you move on instead and let it be what it is? Because those things that made the title what it was in the very beginning still are drawing people in, and there are new people who haven't had the chance to become jaded who still are looking for what that genre has to offer.

As to little, subtle, character changes, they're in there in X-treme. Cannonball filling out as a leader, Gambit and Rogue's stablizing relationship and their loss of their powers, the altered role of the superhero mutant in a world full of 'outed' mutants, Sage's development (all of it...let's face it, she was nobody as Tessa) and Bishops settling into a role he is comfortable with.

However, it is a jaded set of eyes as a reader who's read many many comics that makes these changes feel like nothing. You saw Cannonball 'grow' in another title, therefore his growing here doesn't count. You 'know' because that's how comic books are, that Gambit and Rogue will get their powers back, therefore, their power loss doesn't count. Another title 'outed' mutants, so any takes Claremont makes on the subject can't count as a change. If you hadn't read all this backlog, if you looked with fresher eyes, it would have all the change and everything you loved about these books originally.

The books didn't change. You did. But for some of us, we've only been reading for 7 or 8 years, even if we have read many of the back issues. To us, these are still pretty new. And for us there is a lot to love about X-treme X-men.

Jeanne

[Thorn]

:rolleyes:
People, you're really over doing the critique. X-Treme was fun. X-treme had character growth in Bishop, Storm, Sage, Kitty, and others. Sure not like in the 80s when Chris was pretty much in charge, but growth nonetheless. I loved every issue and can't wait for the end in April and the new beginning in May.

If there is any critique to be made, it isn't of Claremont, but of Marvel for confining his plots, assigning him no less than five editors, countless assistant editors, and the constantly changing dictates of Quesada and Jemas and now Buckley. If you wanted the X-Men to be as good as they were in the 80s Marvel should have Chris write two X-books and be line editor for the rest and let him do what he does best: direct the lives and adventures of the X-Men. Anything less than that, Joel, is going to be more of the last four years.

[Rictor]

Dear God! this was a bit of a ballsy move on joel's part wasnt it!?
Its refreshing to see an honest yet hard-hitting critique of the work of a renowned writer such as chris c. well done.
I agree for the most part with joel's evalutation. the first thirty issues of this title (give or a take an issue or two) really did nothing buit restomp old ground. there was nothing essentially wrong with the stories or their execution, its just that they just lacked excitement and appeared almost lacklustre at times. The biggest problem for me though was one that joel addressed head on...the lack of direction. The destiny's diaries plot-device was a good one and was discarded far too easily in favour of...well, thats just it....

[Joel Phillips]

Originally posted by Jeanne
I think it's somewhat unfair to want change for change's sake alone.

I didn't say I did, I simply made a statement of fact: when the X-Men were changing regularly they were almost universally praised as being great comics. When Claremont left for the first time and the franchise settled into a safe status quo, they were widely panned for their rapid decline. If you don't think that has anything to do with how much or how little the books continue to grow, you're only kidding yourself.

Xmen has an appeal that is time tested. It has lasted for many years, building on some intangable 'thing' that people want to read. What is that 'thing'? You cannot say that it is simply change itself...the entire franchise has remained basically consistant over the years. Instead, to me it seems to be the action, relationships, and the 'superhero story' that keeps drawing in audiences.

First of all if fan statements are any indication the 'superhero story' is absolutely NOT the appeal of the X-Men, the appeal of the X-Men is how the superhero angle is used as a vehicle to explore issues of change, of social inequity, of all the big thematic things that fit into the X-Men so well. Straight superheroics (which I love, by the way... I'm not knocking superhero stories at all) are not what the X-Men are about.

And when you say "the entire franchise has remained basically consistant over the years", you're just flat wrong. In 1975 the entire franchise was overhauled and no longer bore any resemblance AT ALL to what it had been prior. From then until Claremont's original departure in 1991, the title was in a state of constant evolution. The cast changed, the situation of the X-Men in the world changed, relationships changed, characters evolved. It wasn't just change, it was growth. The revamp has been three years? Pick any year during Claremont's first run, go three years earlier and three years later: you'll be looking at three very different periods in the history of the team. That's the way things should be: growing over time. Otherwise the title stagnates: it only ever appeals to those that like it this one way, it causes people who do want growth to lose interest, and it can't attract new readers.

If you demand to see unsubtle, big-time change, you are saying that the core piece that is the nature of these comics has lost its appeal to you and you're eager to try something different.

Who said change has to be "unsubtle" or "big-time"? I certainly didn't. And the core piece that is the nature of these comics was change, evolution, growth. The reason the franchise lost its appeal to me is not because I changed, but because the franchise abandoned what had appealed to me in the first place. The franchise left me, not the other way around.

But if that is the case, then why demand that a title or a genre become something that it is not in order to 'follow' you to your next stage of reading? Why don't you move on instead and let it be what it is? Because those things that made the title what it was in the very beginning still are drawing people in, and there are new people who haven't had the chance to become jaded who still are looking for what that genre has to offer.

Well as I said in my closing, I AM moving on, but that's neither here nor there...

1997 isn't "the very beginning", which is the only thing you could possibly mean when you say that "what drew people in in the very beginning" is still there. What drew people in in 1963 isn't there, what drew people in in 1975 isn't there, what drew people in in the seventies and eighties definately isn't there. Those things that drew people into the X-Men are not still drawing people in, because they don't exist anymore. They have been replaced by something else, something "standard"... which is what apparently drew YOU in. Now if you want to make the argument that that's okay and I should be fine with a franchise I like being strip mined and sold off to you because you're a newer reader whose standards are lower, well... don't hold your breath. Also, considering how many more people were reading these comics when they were changing compared to how many people are reading them now, I don't think appealing to the lowest common denominator is a particularly smart business move for Marvel.

As to little, subtle, character changes, they're in there in X-treme. Cannonball filling out as a leader, Gambit and Rogue's stablizing relationship and their loss of their powers, the altered role of the superhero mutant in a world full of 'outed' mutants, Sage's development (all of it...let's face it, she was nobody as Tessa) and Bishops settling into a role he is comfortable with.

However, it is a jaded set of eyes as a reader who's read many many comics that makes these changes feel like nothing. You saw Cannonball 'grow' in another title, therefore his growing here doesn't count. You 'know' because that's how comic books are, that Gambit and Rogue will get their powers back, therefore, their power loss doesn't count. Another title 'outed' mutants, so any takes Claremont makes on the subject can't count as a change. If you hadn't read all this backlog, if you looked with fresher eyes, it would have all the change and everything you loved about these books originally.

That's the stupidest argument I've ever heard. Let me get this straight: characters went through changes at some point in their history. Then those changes were either reversed or ignored, so that we could see them go through those changes AGAIN as if it were new. And you're saying that that's okay, and that the fact that I don't enjoy it is because... I know better? So if I write a book and I have the main character come to grips with their father's death in chapters 5, 12, 17, 24, 36 and 52, each time treating it as if it is the first time, that's okay, and anyone who doesn't enjoy it is just jaded because... they read the earlier chapters?

What's the point of having the characters change at all if they're just gonna keep redoing the same "growth" every few years? That's not growth, it's recycling. If the characters were actually growing in NEW ways, instead of pretending to grow and counting on new readers that don't know that this has already been done before, then everyone would be happy.

If a story convention REQUIRES the reader to be ignorant of history for it to work, it's a bad idea. I'm not saying stories needed to be bogged down in continuity, but a story shouldn't fail to make sense or fail to seem meaningful for no other reason than the reader having some persepective.

The books didn't change. You did. But for some of us, we've only been reading for 7 or 8 years, even if we have read many of the back issues. To us, these are still pretty new. And for us there is a lot to love about X-treme X-men.

Seven years... 1997! Can I call 'em or what?

The books did change, and the way they changed is they stopped changing. You're allowed to like that... but wait five years, when the stories that feel new to you now have been redone two or three more times. I think you'll be pretty "jaded" by then too. And if you think Marvel can survive with complete reader turnover every five years, well... you're misguided to say the least.

[Alex Guillen]

Joel, great article. I did notice the lack of purpouse for the team after the first arc, and then trying to find a new identity (XSE anyone?)
Overall the whole story was good especially with the group dynamic and the adventuring stories that brought back fond memories to most x-fans (who didn't have much of team action in the other 2 core books)
Overall CC made a great book with some old character and new one as well but his stories suferend, as Joel pointed out, of continutiy woes as well as Marvel's policy for change and not allowing him to do even more with the characters.

[Anthony Lucynski]

I just..I dont get it. I've seen it mentioned a couple times now. Blaming marvel's story/tpb system for subpar writing is such a weak excuse. It doesnt fly. If that were the case, every marvel comic would suck. Big time. Claremont knows Marvel. He knows how they work. If he cant adapt to those constraints (for lack of a better word at the moment) that's not Marvel's fault.

Many a writer have adapted to the new marvel way of making comics, and they are still quite enjoyable, if not excellent. And if Claremont cant do that.....

Anthony L

[Vector]

Originally posted by Joel Phillips

And when you say &quot;the entire franchise has remained basically consistant over the years&quot;, you're just flat wrong. In 1975 the entire franchise was overhauled and no longer bore any resemblance AT ALL to what it had been prior. From then until Claremont's original departure in 1991, the title was in a state of constant evolution. The cast changed, the situation of the X-Men in the world changed, relationships changed, characters evolved. It wasn't just change, it was growth. The revamp has been three years? Pick any year during Claremont's first run, go three years earlier and three years later: you'll be looking at three very different periods in the history of the team. That's the way things should be: growing over time. Otherwise the title stagnates: it only ever appeals to those that like it this one way, it causes people who do want growth to lose interest, and it can't attract new readers.


I'd love to see a column expounding on that paragraph. :chin:

[Jeanne]

Joel, you seem pretty angry.

Yes, I started reading recently. I've also had the good fortune to access the whole comic book run for uncanny since Giant-sized 1. Now, I know they were different before Giant-sized 1. Let me admit, then, that my arguments are limited by that date.

So I turn this back on you, since you know the history of this so well.

The part I think is unfair is asking for change without saying what change you want. What do you want to see happen? Just saying 'Change' isn't enough. The little changes within X-treme aren't enough for you to consider change, I take it, but they are enough for me to consider change. So what is right for you?

You mention 4 changes:
<quote>The cast changed, </quote>
All right. Over the period of over 30+ years, we've had a handfull of permanent removals and additions to the team. Other people have been in and out in shorter periods. X-treme has given us new characters Lifeguard, Slipstream, Vange, and Marie, and introduced Sage from a bit-part to a full- core team member. It has removed Beast and Psylocke from the team, and Rogue and Gambit were in, and then went out. What kind of cast changes greater than this are you looking for?

<quote>the situation of the X-Men in the world changed, </quote>

Within X-treme, the cast has gone from rogue organization fighting the government (Ie: Zero Tolerance) to legitimate sanctioned group working with the government to police mutants. It's turned from fully Mutant-supporting to human supporting, taking the opposite track from X-corp with it's promotion of mutants in society. The role of mutants in the world has also changed, across all the titles, and the implications of that change have been worked with in X-treme. What greater change than these do you want? The X-men spent decades hiding in their mansion with a world supposedly clueless about them. In memory, it is easy to believe the changes to their situation were quick, but they took more years than X-treme X-men has been around.


<quote>relationships changed,</quote>

In Xtreme, Sage went from outsider to insider. Bishop and Sage have developed a partner-type relationship that has not been done in anything X-men I've read. Cannonball is becoming team leader of the X-men. Rogue and Gambit started out firmly on the 'outs' and now are definately in in a more stable relationship than they've ever had. Thunderbird lost one love and gained another, and of course we have our new characters. Who sleeps with who hasn't changed much...but that's been a criticism for Austen. Are you looking for something beyond that? What specifically are you searching for?

<quote> characters evolved.</quote> This is vague. You mean their powers? Rogue and Gambit have never lost them before, at least not on these timescales. Is this not a valid thread to pursue or a valid change because Storm lost hers in the 70s? Storm herself is being 'unleashed' per Arena, though I admit I didn't like that arc much. Personalities/Character? Bishop becoming a 'cop', as much joked about, is an evolution in his character. What are you looking for here?

What are examples of the kinds of changes you're looking for? I admit, I'm trying to guess from what you have written, so I'll stop doing it. I'll still think that asking for change without saying what you want or why you want it (other than you've seen it all before because you've been reading so long) is unfair.

Jeanne.


P.S.
I'm willing to bet good money that only a tiny percentage of the comic book market are people who have read more than 10 years.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Originally posted by Joel Phillips

First of all if fan statements are any indication the 'superhero story' is absolutely NOT the appeal of the X-Men, the appeal of the X-Men is how the superhero angle is used as a vehicle to explore issues of change, of social inequity, of all the big thematic things that fit into the X-Men so well. Straight superheroics (which I love, by the way... I'm not knocking superhero stories at all) are not what the X-Men are about.

And when you say &quot;the entire franchise has remained basically consistant over the years&quot;, you're just flat wrong. In 1975 the entire franchise was overhauled and no longer bore any resemblance AT ALL to what it had been prior. From then until Claremont's original departure in 1991, the title was in a state of constant evolution. The cast changed, the situation of the X-Men in the world changed, relationships changed, characters evolved. It wasn't just change, it was growth. The revamp has been three years? Pick any year during Claremont's first run, go three years earlier and three years later: you'll be looking at three very different periods in the history of the team. That's the way things should be: growing over time. Otherwise the title stagnates: it only ever appeals to those that like it this one way, it causes people who do want growth to lose interest, and it can't attract new readers.



thank GOD...i thought i was alone here. wait a minute...Joel? are you after my job? ;)

"superheroes can...can CHANGE??? You mean...one title can have a totally different take on them than other titles? X-Men AREN'T the same as Spider-Man, Batman or Superman...nor are those three exactly the same as each other? They offer different things to different readers? Well, NOW you're just talking crazy Mr. Phillips!" :p

[Anthony Lucynski]

I'm willing to bet good money that only a tiny percentage of the comic book market are people who have read more than 10 years.

I'll take that bet. (there's a reason why sterotypes exist, and why the industry is desperatley trying to get new readers)


Anthony L

[Iceman Xtreme]

OMG YES!!
Thank you, this is so spot on. CC was a great writer in the past, but we can't blame his dull flat stories on editors constantly. He hasn't adapted to the new era of comics and its as simple as that, Extreme never took off at all, the engine warm up that was the first arc ended in a power failure that has resulted in the book ending. I think it should have ended before we got the whole crap that was/is Rogue powerless and forced into another crap relationship with Gambit. People here are going on about characters being developed, well the fact they have split up a million times and CC keeps forcing them back together is boring the hell out of me and a load of other readers. The R&R relationship is a lot worse than the Scott and Jean one and look what they did to that. So for the love of God CC if you are reading this, please wise up to what fans are saying. Theres a hell of a lot of ppl sick of this relationship. Infact the ppl I talk to I would say 90% dont want them together and think the fact they are on and off like a light switch is so old and overused almost as old as the Storm is my queen bit. Oh btw "I'm a cop" :p

[russbrett77]

Originally posted by Iceman Xtreme
OMG YES!!
Thank you, this is so spot on. CC was a great writer in the past, but we can't blame his dull flat stories on editors constantly. He hasn't adapted to the new era of comics and its as simple as that, Extreme never took off at all, the engine warm up that was the first arc ended in a power failure that has resulted in the book ending. I think it should have ended before we got the whole crap that was/is Rogue powerless and forced into another crap relationship with Gambit. People here are going on about characters being developed, well the fact they have split up a million times and CC keeps forcing them back together is boring the hell out of me and a load of other readers. The R&amp;R relationship is a lot worse than the Scott and Jean one and look what they did to that. So for the love of God CC if you are reading this, please wise up to what fans are saying. Theres a hell of a lot of ppl sick of this relationship. Infact the ppl I talk to I would say 90% dont want them together and think the fact they are on and off like a light switch is so old and overused almost as old as the Storm is my queen bit. Oh btw &quot;I'm a cop&quot; :p



We must hang out in different places.


I would say that 90% of the people I talk to do want Rogue and Gambit to be together.

I suppose with such an even split in the readership we should just leave it up to Claremont.

(arbitrary, unsubstantiated statistics can be fun)

[Anthony Lucynski]

Rogue and Gambit being together is okay by me. I mean, to my generation of readers, they are like Scott and Jean.

Anthony L

[Joel Phillips]

Originally posted by Jeanne
Joel, you seem pretty angry.

Naw, I'm not angry. Frustrated, perhaps, at the state of what was once a favorite franchise of mine. But I'm not angry... or at least not at you ;) .

The part I think is unfair is asking for change without saying what change you want. What do you want to see happen? Just saying 'Change' isn't enough. The little changes within X-treme aren't enough for you to consider change, I take it, but they are enough for me to consider change. So what is right for you?

The reason I didn't give specific examples is because then this would just be "stuff Joel wants to see", which isn't the point. Every reader has a list of things they would or wouldn't like to see, and any change has the potential to be liked or disliked. Just saying "change" IS enough, because that's all I'm asking for. I'm not asking for any specific alterations, because I'm not asking for the franchise to be bent to my will. What I'm asking for is that the franchise change, try new things, explore new directions. That's what it used to do so well, and that's what made it great. As to what those changes will bring... well that's up to whoever writes the stories.

You mention 4 changes:
&lt;quote&gt;The cast changed, &lt;/quote&gt;
All right. Over the period of over 30+ years, we've had a handfull of permanent removals and additions to the team. Other people have been in and out in shorter periods. X-treme has given us new characters Lifeguard, Slipstream, Vange, and Marie, and introduced Sage from a bit-part to a full- core team member. It has removed Beast and Psylocke from the team, and Rogue and Gambit were in, and then went out. What kind of cast changes greater than this are you looking for?

But those just go to show you how insular the cast of the X-Men has become. Thunderbird, Slipstream and Lifeguard weren't part of that "untouchable" class of X-Men, so they were jettisoned. Even money says Vange and Marie will be gone soon as well. Gambit and Rogue were never really out, they just took a break and not even a particularly long one. Beast just moved to another title, and Psylocke's death made everyone freak out and may wind up being undone shortly anyway.

What's my point? Xavier, Cyclops, Phoenix, Beast, Archangel, Iceman, Havok, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Storm, Rogue, Gambit, Bishop and Shadowcat... those characters are untouchable. Fans/writers/editors/whoever won't allow them to NOT be in an X-book for any length of time. Sage and Emma Frost have now been added to that list. The end result is that the amount of change in the cast is limited to a handful of secondary characters or the occasional new character, none of whom can stay around for any length of time or be explored to any significant degree because there simply isn't enough room for them. Look at Reload... which characters are we NOT sure are sticking around? Jubilee, Husk, Juggernaut and Northstar... the second-tier. Rather than seeing what these characters have to offer as X-Men, we toss them aside so we can have more of the same characters who have dominated the books for years.

How is that different than Claremont's first run? Back then characters moved on and did other things, even temporarily. The originals (plus Havok and Polaris) were relegated to cameos for years (pre X-Factor), Nightcrawler and Shadowcat were gone for years on Excalibur, it wasn't uncommon for even Wolverine to take extended leaves of absence. Heck, at one point Claremont dissolved the whole team and spent nearly twenty issues gathering them back together again... you could never do that now. There were core characters, but they didn't ALL have to be on-panel ALL the time, and that allowed for exploration of new characters as well... something the X-books today are lacking.

&lt;quote&gt;the situation of the X-Men in the world changed, &lt;/quote&gt;

Within X-treme, the cast has gone from rogue organization fighting the government (Ie: Zero Tolerance) to legitimate sanctioned group working with the government to police mutants.

They went from X-Men to X-Factor.

It's turned from fully Mutant-supporting to human supporting, taking the opposite track from X-corp with it's promotion of mutants in society.

That's what the X-Men has always done! Mutants protecting humans from bad mutants... that's every story since 1963, that's not new. If anything the X-Corp point shows that the other X-books changed and X-Treme's position was to stay the same and look different by comparison.

The role of mutants in the world has also changed, across all the titles, and the implications of that change have been worked with in X-treme. What greater change than these do you want? The X-men spent decades hiding in their mansion with a world supposedly clueless about them. In memory, it is easy to believe the changes to their situation were quick, but they took more years than X-treme X-men has been around.

The world already knew about the X-Men and about mutants, they just didn't know they lived at Xavier's (although how they missed it is beyond me, but I digress).

And I don't believe the changes of the past were quick, but they were present. They didn't just take three years to bring us full circle to right where we were before.

&lt;quote&gt;relationships changed,&lt;/quote&gt;

In Xtreme, Sage went from outsider to insider. Bishop and Sage have developed a partner-type relationship that has not been done in anything X-men I've read. Cannonball is becoming team leader of the X-men. Rogue and Gambit started out firmly on the 'outs' and now are definately in in a more stable relationship than they've ever had. Thunderbird lost one love and gained another, and of course we have our new characters. Who sleeps with who hasn't changed much...but that's been a criticism for Austen. Are you looking for something beyond that? What specifically are you searching for?

The new characters are all gone, as is Thunderbird. Rogue and Gambit have been playing this same song for a decade: they break up, they get back together. That's what they do. Cannonball being a good guy and having strong leadership skills that come out in a crisis is just the character being written properly, it's not change... and I gave Claremont credit for writing his characters well.

As for Sage... okay. I concede, one character changed. But the fact that it was the only character without any personality to begin with leaves me less than optimistic about the prospect of other characters changing in new ways.

&lt;quote&gt; characters evolved.&lt;/quote&gt; This is vague. You mean their powers? Rogue and Gambit have never lost them before, at least not on these timescales. Is this not a valid thread to pursue or a valid change because Storm lost hers in the 70s? Storm herself is being 'unleashed' per Arena, though I admit I didn't like that arc much. Personalities/Character? Bishop becoming a 'cop', as much joked about, is an evolution in his character. What are you looking for here?

No, not powers, I meant characters themselves as people. Bishop being a cop is not a change, that's what he was when he first appeared: a cop from the future, who came to this timeline searching for escaped criminals.

And like I said, the other characters are just going through the motions. Rogue and Gambit's on and off again romance is par for the course. Storm is strong, but she becomes colder and more distant after a trauma. Then her personality changes a bit... heck she even cut her hair AGAIN so we'd know she was changing personalities again. None of this is evolution, it's just what these characters do. And it's beyond tiresome.

What are examples of the kinds of changes you're looking for? I admit, I'm trying to guess from what you have written, so I'll stop doing it. I'll still think that asking for change without saying what you want or why you want it (other than you've seen it all before because you've been reading so long) is unfair.

But you're looking for a wishlist, and what I'm telling you is I'm not picky. All I want is an attempt to be made to actually change these characters and their world, not just redo old changes. Even if I hate the changes they make, it's still preferable to the total lack of change and the repackaging of old things as new.

I'm willing to bet good money that only a tiny percentage of the comic book market are people who have read more than 10 years.

Like Anthony said, you'd lose that bet. All we ever hear from comic book publishers is how they can't get enough new readers to make up for the old ones that are leaving (or will be leaving eventually).

[Vector]

Well, now that is has been criticized, perhaps when XXM is gone this site can give it a farewell 'party' of some sort? Perhaps just a special article highlighting the best issues, best arcs, and the best characters, covers, etc of the run?

[Alex Groff]

I agree with you, Joel, and I want you to know that I find that deeply upsetting.

My novel-writing class started off with a simple question: Why these characters now?

Which is to say: something meaningful has to happen to the characters for the story to matter.

Meaningful stories inherently mean change. Not reloads and revamps: all they do is shuffle the deck, but you're still playing with the same cards.

Change, or at least meaningful change, has to do with 1) character development/relationships and 2) a sense of purpose.

Comic problem 1: Characters are treated as perfect, even when they're not. Cyclops is not perfect, and when Morrison revealed the flaws that Claremont had created, a small part of fandom went apesh*t. But the truth is, perfect characters aren't stories. The last time Storm was interesting was #198 or #199.

Comic problem 2: Because characters are treated as perfect, they stop developing. And a lack of development means there's no reason for us (or at least me) to care. In lieu of character development, we have characters lose and regain their powers-- but that device has long grown old, and lacks any depth.

Comic problem 3: Because the stories are ongoing, there is no climax, no tension outside of the standard one-arc villian. You can tell that, when Warren Ellis was let loose with COUNTER X, things started happening. Big, meaningful things. Because he and the other writers had the freedom to change things.

Solution: The Sandman, Transmetropolitan, and Preacher are all examples of stories and characters developing, evolving, and then ending when they reached a natural conclusion. The characters were flawed, developed, and after the characters finished developing, at least with Sandman, minor characters were allowed to spin off in new directions.

Grant Morrison's JLA and New X-Men should be memorable-- even if you dislike it-- for its willingness to develop characters and change things. We'll see in a month how much change truly occurs, but with the death of two characters, the introduction of two new characters (not counting the special class), and the maturation of Cyclops and Emma Frost, things are different.

That's what change means.

Uhm, I got off on a tangent, but it's all somewhat related, I think.

[Chris Claremont]

Originally posted by Anthony Lucynski
I just..I dont get it. I've seen it mentioned a couple times now. Blaming marvel's story/tpb system for subpar writing is such a weak excuse. It doesnt fly. If that were the case, every marvel comic would suck. Big time. Claremont knows Marvel. He knows how they work. If he cant adapt to those constraints (for lack of a better word at the moment) that's not Marvel's fault.

Many a writer have adapted to the new marvel way of making comics, and they are still quite enjoyable, if not excellent. And if Claremont cant do that.....

Anthony L

Dear Anthony:

You've made your point, I get the message, let's move on shall we?

Cordially,
Chris Claremont

[rutog98]

You’d think after all these years SOMEONE would try to make, say, Rogue their bride instead, but that never seems to happen.)

Consider the guys who wanted Ororo as their mate. There is Arkon, Dr. Doom, and Kahn that I can think of right off the bat. Sorry, but Ororo makes the most sense of all the x-women. She has a certain bearing/carriage about her that is unique to her of all the x-women. For Rogue or Jean or Betsy to be picked by any of these men over Ororo as their queen or romantic interests simply would seem forced.

[NicholasRogue]

Originally posted by rutog98
You’d think after all these years SOMEONE would try to make, say, Rogue their bride instead, but that never seems to happen.)

Consider the guys who wanted Ororo as their mate. There is Arkon, Dr. Doom, and Kahn that I can think of right off the bat. Sorry, but Ororo makes the most sense of all the x-women. She has a certain bearing/carriage about her that is unique to her of all the x-women. For Rogue or Jean or Betsy to be picked by any of these men over Ororo as their queen or romantic interests simply would seem forced.
Yeah and Storm as their Queen wasn't forced either?

[rutog98]

Originally posted by NicholasRogue

Yeah and Storm as their Queen wasn't forced either?

No, it wasn't. They were single and obviously looking for somebody. Why would anybody choose tomboyish Rogue or the girl next door Jean for their queen? Storm, on the other hand, makes sense. She has that natural command and composure about her. If Namor were to be interested in any x-woman, it would most likely be Storm as well. Same would go for Magneto and others with that kind of charisma and presence.

[Rictor]

I actually feel a bit bad that Chris is reading these posts. Although constructive criticism is supposed to be welcome at all times, it must be tough to hear that your work hasnt hit the mark with some of the x-fans. while ill admit that xtreme wasnt to my tastes for its first year or two in existence, ill just as readily admit that schism, that x.s.e. story, storm:the arena and this most recent offering have thoroughly satisfied my x-palette. gripes aside, im looking forward to the reload.

[Kevin Sutton]

Originally posted by rutog98
You’d think after all these years SOMEONE would try to make, say, Rogue their bride instead, but that never seems to happen.)

Consider the guys who wanted Ororo as their mate. There is Arkon, Dr. Doom, and Kahn that I can think of right off the bat. Sorry, but Ororo makes the most sense of all the x-women. She has a certain bearing/carriage about her that is unique to her of all the x-women. For Rogue or Jean or Betsy to be picked by any of these men over Ororo as their queen or romantic interests simply would seem forced.

I'll agree with that. Of all the X-women, she's the most appropriate choice for villains who want a 'queen'.

I actually feel a bit bad that Chris is reading these posts. Although constructive criticism is supposed to be welcome at all times, it must be tough to hear that your work hasnt hit the mark with some of the x-fans. while ill admit that xtreme wasnt to my tastes for its first year or two in existence, ill just as readily admit that schism, that x.s.e. story, storm:the arena and this most recent offering have thoroughly satisfied my x-palette. gripes aside, im looking forward to the reload.

That's why I've seen no reason to chime in.

[NicholasRogue]

Originally posted by rutog98


Same would go for Magneto and others with that kind of charisma and presence.
Yeah except Mags liked Rogue and not Storm:p

[Steve]

I disagree with the negative remarks about Claremont's writing. But I will say this about Storm....

I always thought that the reason all these aspiring world conquerors chose Storm was because they could sense the whole "Earth Goddess" thing about her. You know the same thing that led her to be worshipped as a sort of elemental weather goddess. Her mastery of the weather and attachment to the primal forces of nature make her very attractive to people who wish to assert themselves over those very same forces.
But that's just how I explained it in my own mind and I haven't read it anywhere or anything. What can I say, Control Freaks dig Storm!

Dr. Doom: "Bah! Pathetic fools! Not only have I subjugated your pathetic Earth governments---watch this Paris Hilton-style videotape that shows me getting busy with Mother Earth herself!"

:O

[rutog98]

Originally posted by NicholasRogue

Yeah except Mags liked Rogue and not Storm:p

Magneto's taste is in worse trouble than I thought. You've reminded me. However, the point about villains falling for Storm all the time is not a criticism for CC that holds any water to me since it has always made the most sense.

As far as X-treme goes, I really like the title. Its my favorite comic. I felt that it got better and better as it went on. The first story arc involving Shaw was not to my liking. Aside from the fact it focused on (Ugh!) Rogue and Remy (whom I am actually okay with), the team didn't have that family feel like it does now. It came together more as the stories progressed. I think it is sad that the title has to be cancelled now. I am glad that CC keeps Ororo though! :D

Mr. CC, if you read this, one thing I would like to see more is the X-Men fight villains where we don't know exactly who is going to win. It seems to be taken for granted by the team themselves that they are going to trounce the villain du jour. I would like to see the team fight formidable villains that will make them sweat instead of the team treating it merely like routine. How about a story arc involving the Acanti and Brood or the Shi'ar? If you do one of these stories, make sure that Storm is in it. :D

[Telepath]

Originally posted by rutog98


No, it wasn't. They were single and obviously looking for somebody. Why would anybody choose tomboyish Rogue or the girl next door Jean for their queen? Storm, on the other hand, makes sense.



:LOL: i have to agree though rogue isn't that manly.

[Joel Phillips]

Originally posted by rutog98
However, the point about villains falling for Storm all the time is not a criticism for CC that holds any water to me since it has always made the most sense.

There's a larger point you seem to be missing. Even if we were to concede that Storm is the best choice for a villain to make his queen, that doesn't change how ridiculous it is that villains repeatedly seek to make someone their queen at all. Even if we concede that 7-Up is the best soft drink to bathe in, that doesn't make it any less ridiculous that people would repeatedly bathe in 7-Up. It's the repetition of the situation, not the selection, that makes it silly.

[NicholasRogue]

Originally posted by rutog98


Magneto's taste is in worse trouble than I thought. You've reminded me. However, the point about villains falling for Storm all the time is not a criticism for CC that holds any water to me since it has always made the most sense.

As far as X-treme goes, I really like the title. Its my favorite comic. I felt that it got better and better as it went on. The first story arc involving Shaw was not to my liking. Aside from the fact it focused on (Ugh!) Rogue and Remy (whom I am actually okay with), the team didn't have that family feel like it does now. It came together more as the stories progressed. I think it is sad that the title has to be cancelled now. I am glad that CC keeps Ororo though! :D

Mr. CC, if you read this, one thing I would like to see more is the X-Men fight villains where we don't know exactly who is going to win. It seems to be taken for granted by the team themselves that they are going to trounce the villain du jour. I would like to see the team fight formidable villains that will make them sweat instead of the team treating it merely like routine. How about a story arc involving the Acanti and Brood or the Shi'ar? If you do one of these stories, make sure that Storm is in it. :D


I can't believe you.. Storm has freakin dominated this book and you make her out to be a poor supporting character

[Telepath]

Originally posted by Joel Phillips


There's a larger point you seem to be missing. Even if we were to concede that Storm is the best choice for a villain to make his queen, that doesn't change how ridiculous it is that villains repeatedly seek to make someone their queen at all. Even if we concede that 7-Up is the best soft drink to bathe in, that doesn't make it any less ridiculous that people would repeatedly bathe in 7-Up. It's the repetition of the situation, not the selection, that makes it silly.



but not ever claremont villan wants storm to be there queen does bogan? does vargas?

[Joel Phillips]

Well not ALL of them, but enough that it's been overdone.

[Natester]

to Anthony

:rolleyes: Chris doesnt need to adapt... his stories are entertaining and sales proves it...

just because you dont like his writing style he has to adapt to suit YOUR taste? thats ridiculous...

subpar writing? this your opinion dont blab it out like its fact.... his stories ARE excellent... and THIS is my opnion...
see how im not making it out like everyone shares my taste??? its quite simple, u should try it...

[Anthony Lucynski]

Um, where in my posts did I say he had to do any of that? Look, i'm not even in here stating my opinion on his run. In my very first post in this thread, I said I agreed with the article, but nowhere did I say that Chris should change his style of writing for me because I find it subpar.

You're going to be hard pressed to find anywhere where i've said that. All I said was that IF his writing doesnt hit the mark, it's not MARVEL'S fault, it's the writers.

ANY writers.

Not just Chris's.

It's a weak excuse in my opinion to blame Marvel for that.

So quit putting words in my mouth.

Anthony L

[Natester]

:( eh well... i for one enjoy his writing and look forward each month to his xmen series...

i apologize if i sounded kinda hostile... but Chris gets alot of crap for being on msgboards like this... i mean if u get enough sh*t thrown at yah sometimes itll get u down.... id hate if he went the way of Austen... (leave the Msgboard i mean... not the bad writing) hehe cheap shot... ill stop....

there's always another issue of whatever hes writing to win u over... or win u back... ;)

edit : Ooooh.... continuity error... yes blame Chris.... :rolleyes: i guess its a big no no nowadays?

oh and yeah i cant explain the high price for the Arena issues... more pages? anywho... :p oh who am i kidding... i hate Storm... i didnt even buy those issues lol

[rutog98]

Originally posted by NicholasRogue



I can't believe you.. Storm has freakin dominated this book and you make her out to be a poor supporting character

How am I making her out to be a "poor supporting character"? She has not dominated this book by any means whatsoever. Every character has had a major role in the title.

In regards to CC's response, the way I see it, people tend to state what they don't like once and then keep driving it till it gets offensive. I think CC was trying to prevent that. Also, the way the post that he, CC, responded to was worded sharply.

[Ann Nichols]

I came back to the X-Men for Prof. X, so I wasn't interested in collecting XXM. I did buy the "Schism" trade paperback because I found out that Xavier was in it, but the book upset me very much. I was left with the feeling that Mr. Claremont was trying to make the XXM appear morally superior to the main X-Men and was defaming Prof. X (and Jean and Warren -- perhaps not so much for Emma) to do so.

Why did the XXM get to meet the polite and ethical reporters while Emma and her students had to deal with the rude and arrogant reporters?

That's minor compared to the way Warren was portrayed. First he's written to handle the edited tape stupidly (he could have allowed the original version to be aired or the slanted version to air after the original, with frequent warnings about the editing). What Warren said about brand identity isn't even supported by XXM. Storm and her team are still allowed to call themselves X-Men.

I was really bothered by the fact that Storm didn't call Xavier on the spot and hand the phone to Warren after explaining. After all, Charles didn't blow her off when she later called about Emma. He took her report about the Danger Room Attack seriously even though there was no evidence that it had happened. His affection for his "daughter" when they met again in the flesh was obvious. So why didn't Storm call?

Sage's nasty suspicions about Xavier certainly haven't been supported in the other books. If anything, Xavier may not have used his powers enough. Jean and Emma could have been worse over the Scott situation. Was there any indication that Sage bothered to ask how Cassandra Nova fooled those powerful telepaths? Has she or any other XXM kept in touch with the other X-Men to see how things are going? If they had, they'd know that the main X-Men still care about protecting humans from bad mutants. In contrast, I note that Emma tried to use Cerebra to find out Jeffrey's guilt or innocence.

Storm and Xavier's argument over Jeffrey upset me because Xavier wasn't permitted to answer effectively. Why didn't he ask her to consider the probability that a boy Jeffrey's age, who had just lost his family in a horrific manner, wasn't rational enough to recognize an innocent among the evil? How about pointing out that with Bogan involved, having Jeffrey removed from the school might well be the equivalent of putting a fully-loaded semi-automatic rifle out where a homicidal maniac could get it? Why not have Xavier offer to let the court try Jeffrey within the school, for safety's sake? Why not have Storm reflect that Jeffrey was more likely to learn remorse and be given opportunity to atone [through rescue operations?] at the school instead of prison? How about the greater likelihood that Bogan would be able to kidnap Jeffrey and use him to harm others if the boy were in prison?

I think Mr. Claremont could have just had Storm report those nasty mutant kids in California and tell Xavier that she and her team wanted to deal with that. Why splinter?

I picked up Intifada for the Xavier references, but that storyline upset me, too. I longed for one of the XXM to display the good sense that Bishop did in NXM's "Murder at the Mansion" and let Xavier's know what was going on with Roberto and the CA X-Corp. branch. I've bought the issues for "Prisoner of Fire" so far, but I'm afraid to read them. It's not just feeling that my favorite character is being defamed -- I'm losing all respect for the XXM because they seem to be determined to believe the worst of the other X-Men without trying to find out if they're right.

Has Bogan been playing with their minds to keep them away from Xavier's? That would make me feel better about the XXM.
I'd feel better even if it turns out that Sage has been doing the manipulating to punish Xavier for asking her to work undercover instead of making her an acknowledged X-Man from the start. I suppose I should take my own advice and read "Prisoner of Fire". If it makes me want to scream in frustration, I'll scream.

Thanks for your review. I'm glad to learn that there are others who are less than enchanted with XXM, even if not for the same reason.

[Duncan]

So it's not a perfect title.

I don't think anyone ever stated that it was the perfect title. It's just a comicbook, and it has it's strong points and it has its weak points.
You can say whatever you like about X-treme X-men, but it was consistent. It didn't fluctuate as much as Uncanny or New X-men, which made it a stable title.

From the beginning, this title has struggled most for recognition, and it succeeded in that, by being consistent. It might not be some drug-pumped story, it's reasonably down to earth, but it's still classic super-hero stuff.

And things have changed inside the title. Storm became more than wallpaper, and regained a very human personality, not at all a flawless being.

Storm right now has a bitchy side to her, and I like that, she's changed from being wallpaper, without a personality, to a very human character.

Rogue, I might not be the biggest fan of this character, but at least Claremont gave me something that I could actually enjoy reading. No longer the whining girl who can't do anything other than complain about how bad her life is with her abilities. Rogue right now is powerless, still a bit too strong, but at least she's moved on, she's changed since the title began.

Bishop, god I actually hated this character before this title began, but now he's finally been given a personality. Bishop is no longer a walking reminder of the nineties, big black angry man, but he's a character who actually learned something in his past, he's finally a character with a brain, unlike 6 years ago, when he was merely a character with a gun.

Sage... well she's popular thanks to Claremont.

Canonball, finally out of his role as a teenager, a follower, he's standing on his own now, stronger than when he first joined the X-men.

Gambit, well I hate that character no matter who writes him.

And damnit, I liked Lifeguard and Slipstream!

About the villains. Kahn was an understandable villain, a bit cliche, but when looking at the other titles, he's the only villain in recent YEARS that actually had some redeeming qualities to his personality and background. As a reader you could sympathise with him, he was a bad guy, but he wasn't evil for the sake of being evil.
Cliche, yes, but at least the cliche was that he had some depth. Unlike the villains in New X-men and Uncanny, Kahn had better motivations for doing what he did, he was just a poor misunderstood man. I can't find that element of sympathy and respect in Morisson's Magneto, or Austen's Cabots.

Vargas, I still think this guy had potential. I still don't see this villain as the evil man who was evil for the sake of it. Something many accused him of.

Well Stryker and Reverend Paul... can they still be considered villains? They were shoehorned into the title, because of the editors high above Claremont, a commercial descision. And still, I kind of liked them in the end.

Intifada, one of those storylines which had me actually sympathising with the villain, besides the base of that storyline was an analogy for the conflict in Israel. You can't blame Claremont for crafting shallow stories.

Shism, that one showed me that Claremont can play in someone else's sandbox and actually take ideas and launching them in a new direction. Claremont developped some of Morrison's ideas better than Morisson ever did in his own title.

Arena... well everybody makes mistakes... ;)

Current storyline, I'm enjoying it so far... but it's not the best I've seen, but still quite enjoable.

[Joel Phillips]

The back and forth between camps is over. The posts have been deleted, as they serve no purpose but one side inflaming the other. You're free to post your opinions of XXM or the column all you want. Belittling the opinions of other posters is not tolerated.

[david r]

What interested me most about Joel's article was the statement that Marvel won't allow real change in these books. He is absolutely right. These books have a beginning, a long endless middle, and no ending.

The characters can't be allowed to grow and change. Change is fundamentally against what the Big Two are all about. They put out about four or five Batman, Superman and Spider-Man books. Each written by a different writer. There can be no rocking the boat. Unless its all coordinated by the group editor for a massive crossover (like "The Death of Superman" or "The Clone Saga"). Nobody has a clear, precise vision for the book or character, because they have to play nice with the other creators and the corporate mindset of the company.

Claremont and the X-Men is the perfect example of this. And perhaps the most tragic. Claremont's initial run was all about change. From the death of Thunderbird to the sacrifice of Magneto and his Acolytes, his legendary first run changed the characters in many fundamental ways. Storm losing her powers for 3 years. Wolverine's evolution from an arrogant loner, to his present "failed samurai" personae. Magneto's change from evil mutant wanting to dominate the world to a elder statesman. CC always was finding ways to express the characters inner wants and insecurities.

But Claremont's return to the X-canon in 2000 has been frought with problems. It seems when he attempts any real change, he has hit a brickwall. The world has changed. There is no way possible in the current climate for a 3-year storyarc of Ororo losing her powers. Or the gradual change Logan went through. Or the radical step of placing the X-Men in faraway Australia. It won't go against Marvel's desire to keep the books as "normal" as possible. They want to maximize the "new Reader" phenomenon and the success of the movies. So the comics have completely become secondary to other forms of media. And Chris has tried his best to adapt.

Thus is the dilemma of "X-Treme X-Men". How do you tell meaningful stories in such a stagnant climate at Marvel. When true growth is stifled because it may offend the "new reader". When continuity is looked down upon because it may be confusing. For a writer steeped in the continuity, it must have been difficult for Chris to work under such conditions.

Or could he be just biding his time, until the winds of change occur again at Marvel, and he can tell the stories he wants to, in a working environment that will welcome the type of glorious stories he told in his initial run?

[Storm_1118]

Can I get an amen to david r? That's so true!! Marvel doesn't want stuff that takes place longer than a few issues b/c it wouldn't fit in the TPB. I think this is bad for retailers. I mean, I can remember when I'd be reading an old X-Men comic or whatever and it would have an little * and say that this happened in issue whatever. When I saw that, I'd want to know what happened, so I'd head to the comic store and pick up that old issue. It's good business for the comic book retailer, that's a good way of moving back issues. Sadness to the new Marvel.

[Rictor]

David R, that was very well done and damn insightful too...........unlike this post. but yeah, now that you mention it, your ideas about the (in)accessibility for the "new readers" are very plausible.

[bmack]

Dear Chris,

I know you are probably reading this thread, so here goes...

I am sorry some people do not like/understand/tolerate/support your efforts. The first comic book I ever read was during the Outback era of UXM. I was hooked forever from that point forward. Not just on X-Men, but comics in general. I always held a special place in my heart for the X-Men though, still do, and always will. I have nearly every issue of UXM (except for the REALLY pricy ones) and almost every issue of every X spin-off since (whew... that is a hell of a lot of comics :p )!!! I consider you the father of the X-Men... well technically I guess Stan Lee is the father of the X-Men... but you are definitely the step-father that comes in later in the lives of the children and mold and shape them in to the wonderful people they turn out to be later in life. I feel that you revolutionized the comic industry by building years and years of continuity that made the X-Men more than just a "villain of the month" book like so many other titles out there. My only complaints came when you no longer wrote the book for brief periods and some other schmucks came in and mucked everything up (a real world example of this, following our previous analogy, would be mom's third/fourth/fifth husbands that generally abuse the children and make a mess of their fragile psyches). I feel that nowadays your work is never given the proper chance it deserves. The Neo storyline you began during "Revolution" a few years back was something new and different than we had seen before. The characters and concept were interesting and refreshing and unfortunately the storyline was never given a chance to go forward. I felt the same way about the "Destiny's Diaries" storyline that kicked off X-Treme. Another great storyline that could have still been going on today. Not to mention your "Twelve" and "X-Traitor" storylines (that other writers butchered), the idea that humans are really victims in some cases when it comes to mutants and mutant powers being used to extort real estate (see recent issue of Xtreme), etc. I know there are various things that add up to lead to these changes in titles. I know it has a lot to do with the company and those in charge altering and scrapping ideas that they feel are not going to work or are not directions they would like to go in... but I also feel there is something else very sinister at work here. The readers. I am not talking about the hardcore fans, but rather the fringe comic reader, the newbie, or the casual reader. It seems that people (Americans especially) as a whole are quickly losing their attention spans. Let's be honest here... most people have already lost them. A.D.D. is running wild and it is not just kids that are suffering ;) Some people don't give the long running plots, angles, and arcs the time they need and the respect they deserve. Some people want a neat and tidy resolution within a few books, or by the end of the issue in their hands. Some people are only impressed by bright colors, big words, and scantily-clad women (or men). I am not saying this is everyone. There are still those that value a great read with a sense of continuity and a willingness to try new ideas. Unfortunately, I think the company tends to cater to the former rather than the later.

Please, do not be discouraged. I am so excited to have you back on UXM. Finally, the prodigal-father returns to rescue my favorite book from the recent stinky-ness it has fallen victim to. Some people may call this "a feeling of nostalgia". Some may call it "blind devotion to a favorite writer". Others may call it "a right-wing conspiracy instigated by those demon-spawn Republicans and Haliburton". I call it a respect for possibly the most influential author in my life. A respect for a hard-working professional who is willing to spend his free time online catering to sometimes-unappreciative (sometimes downright nasty) fanboys. A respect for a man who sometimes pumps out four or more issues in one month, sometimes works on multiple titles, and yet still manages to have time to spend with his family and friends and pursue other interests outside of the comic world (perhaps sleeping). I just wanted to say thank you Chris! Thank you for breathing new life into THE greatest comic book of all time and sharing your brilliance with us... the unworthy fans. Thank you for taking an interest in what us unworthy ones think about the characters, their lives, and their worlds by chatting with us on sites like these. Thanks for all of your hard work and dedication to these characters and the comic book industry. Thank you for providing me a world that I can use to escape reality when things get hairy in the real world, and for providing me with characters that feel like they are friends, or a second family. And most importantly, thank you for doing this all with a smile. Good luck in the future and here is to many more great stories :cheers:

Sincerely,
Bryan L. Mackrell

[dredweezul]

After reading through this entire thread, I am somewhere between annoyed and amused. What a lot of pants! As if your personal opinion that Claremont's writing is ho-hum counts for diddly squat. Many of you imply by your haughty and elite tones, that ANYONE that enjoys his work is dull to the extreme. Saying that you personally, feel that his writing has gone down hill or that it just isn't doing it for you is one thing, but making a broad sweeping statement that it is terrible, as IF it were fact, is out of line. While there were a few insightful posts on this thread, the majority were posts made by individuals, who in their own little solipsistic reality, believe that they are the arbitrators of all good taste.

Excuse me, but who are YOU to say that ANY writer needs to change their style or get out of the business, simply for the fact that YOU feel that they are a has-been? If you don't like it, stop reading it, but stop whining. And stop stating personl taste as universal fact. There are a few of us that have the gall to enjoy Claremont's story telling.

Annika L

[Anthony Lucynski]

You're right, of course. Personal opinion on X-treme is just that, and everybody has one. Everybody has personal tastes. I like Claremont's writing on Gen 13, and I loved the recent issue of JLA (first time i've read JLA in a looonnnggg time, and I did it because of Claremont/Byrne).

Some people dont. Obviously, despite anybody's opinons, he's doing something right, correct? Sales arent bad on the title (from what I know, if i'm wrong, i apologize) and he's getting assignments left and right.

I think on the internet, there are those that have strong opinions about certain creators, and they think if they like something, or if they dont like something, then perhaps everybody else should feel the same. It's all up to personal tastes. And I dont think anybody should bash anybody else if they like a certain creator or comic book.

This is entertainment, after all....isnt it?

Anthony L

[Rictor]

dred,
I dont think thats fair. no-ones opinion is law and i dont think its question of a widespread clampdown on xtreme fans. Maybe some people felt a little unsatisfied with xtreme xmen, and maybe their dissatisfaction found a voice with joel's article? i know mine was. other people such as david r decided to provide some of their own insights, which i found to be a great read.
Most posters respect Chris for everything that he's done for the Xmen, but at the same time, theyre not content to simply lap-up everything he writes.

[NicholasRogue]

Personally in my opinion CC did the best thing possible! He let Rogue able to have sex for once!!!!:p

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

Originally posted by NicholasRogue
Personally in my opinion CC did the best thing possible! He let Rogue able to have sex for once!!!!:p

actually...didn't Lobdell and Seagle let her have sex first? :p

[BigStevieCool]

Great article.

I also found XXM bland. Every issue. I stuck it out though, and am very grateful for the RELOAD. It gives me a chance to cut the line.

While I cringe every time I see Claremont's name on a book now, he HAS gotten better at toning down the dialogue. The recent FF run was needles in the eyes, but XXM was softer, like a kidney punch. I think Claremont does great characterization, but horrible super-villains.

In regards to the "can't rock the boat" rule, I think that's just giving excuses. Have the Avengers really changed? Has the FF? Has the Hulk? Sure, they've had their moments where they deviate, but it always goes back to form. Jean Grey comes back, Hulk hates Banner, Cap reforms the Avengers. All in all, the boat rocks, but still is the same boat.

Claremont had it rougher this time though. He had to surpass his previous work, and that's no easy feat. He had to compete with "New X-Men", which was the hottest thing going. He had to deal with a different genre of fans - and let's face it, back in the day when he wrote X-Men previously, most of us weren't complaining on the internet... He had it tough.

I think what XXM was missing was (as said) focus, recognizable villains, and action. I was never amazed by what I saw in XXM. Pretty art isn't enough. Give me a Magneto, a Sinister, or an Apocalypse pulling the strings of the no-names. Have more guest appearances (like at the end of XXM's run). Don't let this be an X-Men Villain Amateur Hour. And please, no mutants on surfboards.

Anyways, those are MY thoughts on the subject. I look forward to Claremont criticizing my writing one day, and saying, "See? See?"

[NicholasRogue]

Originally posted by Jordan T. Maxwell


actually...didn't Lobdell and Seagle let her have sex first? :p


Yes darling but that was a one night stand thing, now we're talking full sexcapades!

[Ann Nichols]

Originally posted by bmack
Dear Chris,

I know you are probably reading this thread, so here goes...

The readers. I am not talking about the hardcore fans, but rather the fringe comic reader, the newbie, or the casual reader. It seems that people (Americans especially) as a whole are quickly losing their attention spans. Let's be honest here... most people have already lost them. A.D.D. is running wild and it is not just kids that are suffering ;) Some people don't give the long running plots, angles, and arcs the time they need and the respect they deserve. Some people want a neat and tidy resolution within a few books, or by the end of the issue in their hands.

No, I just feel that Mr. Claremont has chosen to write his characters as morally superior to all of the other X-Men and I think that's mean-spirited. I think that's even worse than XXM and NXM almost completely ignoring the existence of the UXM team. If I have misread Mr. Claremont's intent, then I apologize.

[x-ploited]

Good article. And for the most part I agree. In the begining the Destiny's Diary's plot had so much promise but fell way short of expectations. It went absolutly nowhere. They pretty much came to the same conclusion that we knew anyway.
And his villians always seem to be these unexplainably powerful and invincible individuals that are defeated by what appers to be luck.

I think that was the problem with revolutions. To many overly powerful villians at once with little character development. I think if a little more time would of been took to tell the story instead of just throwing you into it it would of worked.
I am very skeptical for the upcoming stories because I haven't really enjoyed Claremonts stories for a while now. I want something new.
Now I'm not a everything he touches is gold Morrison sheep. But he did bring something new to the table. Although the content of his stories was the same rehashed stories at least the tone and style was something different. I act