REEDING INTO THINGS #22: COMIC Q & A

[Joel Phillips]

<img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/images/columns/ritlogo.jpg" align=left width=115 height=100 border=0 alt="Reeding Into Things">By Joel Phillips, old_ky_shark@hotmail.com

Q & A: Answering the Unanswered Comic Book Fan Questions


There are a ton of questions that are given endless discussion and debate in comic reading circles. Some of these questions are thought provoking or otherwise relevant, but most of them are just weird. I don’t pretend to understand why people even want some of these questions answered. But I am forever a man of the people, and if the people want an answer, an answer they shall have. For this edition we’ll be focusing on general comic book questions, but depending on how well this works out I may devote future editions to giving similar treatment to particular characters, franchises or categories.

(Note for the humorless: if my take on a given issue does not jive with your own, it’s no big deal. If you find yourself deeply offended by my answers… well, you probably missed the entire point of this column.)

Q: What religion is _____?

A: It’s my opinion, and the opinion of many others I’ve encountered, that everyone in Marvel or DC comics (unless otherwise specified) is Jewish. Just about all the comic book creators from the Golden and early Silver Age were Jewish, and their characters include thick layers of Semitic behaviors, attitudes, and even speech patterns. I know a rabbi that talks just like Ben Grimm, and the real names of Kryptonians immediately recall Hebrew and Yiddish pronunciation.

All comic book characters from the “big two” are Jewish… except the Elf with a gun, who I believe is a Buddhist (it’s a Zen thing).

Q: Do comic book characters go to the bathroom?

A: Yes, in that characters relieve themselves, and yes in that, at some point, we’ve seen many of these characters in or around a bathroom. That said most characters prefer to just pee in the spaces between the panels when nobody’s looking… yes, even the women.

Q: Who’s strongest? or Who’s more powerful? or Who’d win in a fight?

A: Does it really matter? Superhuman powers are just plot devices: Superman can tear through steel not because he’s an alien, but because that way the writers can put someone in a wrecked car and have Superman get them out in one panel, instead of having him run to call the police and find a Jaws of Life. What’s more, the only time the heroes fight one another are in crappy “versus” events, which really only exist because of people’s desire to answer questions like these. Not that those events ever answer anything: they just fuel the fire and ensure that the debate will never, ever die.

Q: That’s not an answer! I want to know, and you promised!

A: Sigh. At DC, Superman beats everyone else because he’s Superman, and DC realized long ago that since Superman lacks any personality whatsoever, the best thing he has going for him is the fact that he’s so insanely overpowered that nobody poses a legitimate threat to him.

At Marvel, Thor beats everyone because Stan Lee says so, and since he’s Stan Lee he gets to do that and you have to sit there and like it. (Note: I didn’t just make that up. For years, Lee’s position has been that Thor is the most powerful character in the entire Marvel pantheon).

At Image… who cares?

Q: But who’s strongest out of ALL of them? From every company?

A: Jughead. He long ago harnessed the combined might of the power cosmic and the speed force, channeled through an enchanted smoothie from the Riverdale Malt Shop. Since ingesting it, he has become the sum and substance of all that is and shall ever be. In fact, he traveled back in time and sowed his essence into the cosmic furnace from whence all universes were hewn; hence Jughead is all things, everywhere, across all time.

Q: Who’d win in a battle between Marvel and DC?

A: Go read the Marvel vs. DC limited series… Marvel won 6 to 5, and it didn’t matter anyway.

Q: But the fans decided some of those, and that was a tiny little contest anyway. I mean if THE ENTIRE companies fought.

A: DC would win, because they have more money and could replace all their creators with professional killers.

Q: The characters! You know what I meant!

A: Yes, but it’s a stupid question no matter what angle we approach it from. Neither side would win or lose, because neither side is going out of business. If one side were going out of business, they would lose. Hell, it’s even a stupid question if we pretended this was all real, and looked at it from that perspective, because with all that power they’d probably all wipe each other out anyway.

Q: Have ______ and _______ had sex?

A: Yes.

Q: Doesn’t it matter who the blanks are?

A: Not really. Superheroes wear those scandalously revealing costumes for a reason: as soon as they’re done getting beaten on by bad guys, they have an orgy. It takes a special mix of exhibitionism and masochism to dress like that while doing what we SEE them do. Why do you think as soon as the X-Men switched into restrictive leather ensembles they all got so depressed? They’re harder to get out of.

Q: Wow, I guess that makes sense.

A: No it doesn’t, you nitwit! Who cares if these characters have had sex? They aren’t real. When there’s story value in knowing whether or not two characters have had sex, we’ll know. Other then that, get your mind out of the gutter.

Q: Why are you so grouchy?

A: I spend my free time reading comic books and talking about them online. You figure it out.

Q: Is _______ in continuity or not?

A: Anything in regular ongoing books is in continuity for whatever universe they take place in. As for everything else, if it sucks, it isn’t in continuity.

Q: I don’t think it works that way…

A: Might as well. Nobody will ever reference it again and any changes it makes will be ignored. Best to chalk it up to being out of continuity then to waste mental capital on trying to explain any discrepancies.

Q: One last question for you… why is the comic book industry failing?

A: I’m not sure it is, but I assume what you really mean is “why aren’t comics as financially successful as they used to be”. I think that really has to do with an audience that is growing out of comics (or getting tired of them, whichever way you want to put it), and a group of publishers who cannot capture enough new readers to replace them. I’m not an industry insider or a financial expert, but I know a few things just from the perspective of a reader and consumer. Consider the following:

For roughly the same cost as two monthly comic book titles for a year, you can buy a brand new video game. Even the shortest video games provide more entertainment hours than comic books, and many of them are better written (which is pretty sad). Many, if not most video games have a multiplayer component that transforms them from solitary entertainment to social event. What’s more, even the best comic book can only be reread so many times, while the average video game has at least some built-in replay value.

Comics aren’t cool, and never will be. The people who read comics do so with an understanding that this part of their lives diminishes their overall cool quotient (as does using the phrase “cool quotient”). This outsider status, which comics share with RPGs or science fiction, keeps a mainstream audience away. Try as comic book publishers might to find a solution to this problem, there isn’t one: the majority of non-readers are not potential readers because they will never, ever pick up a comic book.

Comic books, sadly, are a nearly obsolete art form. Books allow a greater insight into their characters minds and souls, because they can devote more time to interior monologue, or even to regular dialogue, than a comic book can before the page becomes cluttered with word balloons. And movies or TV can handle special effects, action and adventure far better than static images on a page.

Adults think comics are for kids, and yet most comics aren’t for kids at all. Thus adults won’t try most comics, and kids can’t try most comics, because they are instantly recognizable to parents as inappropriate.

I see the industry not so much failing as a company would fail, with money drying up and the company going under, but dying slowly as an art form dies, as technology and taste moves away from it until there’s simply not enough interest from readers or creators to keep the medium going with the regularity required of a major company. There won’t be a time when nobody is making comic books (at least not soon), but there will be a time when major companies, titles, franchises and licenses die, because there simply isn’t enough interest to produce comic books on the regular schedule such things require to survive.


Thus concludes our Q & A. I hope I’ve answered some of your questions, or at the very least ridiculed you sufficiently that you will stop asking them.

<center><hr width=75%></center>

Joel Phillips is fully aware of how cheap a gimmick returning to the original numbering of this column is… but he did it anyway.

The opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the writer, and are not reflective of ComiX-Fan or its other staff in general.

[Youri Zoutman]

Q: Have ______ and _______ had sex?

A: Yes.

Q: Doesn’t it matter who the blanks are?

A: Not really. Superheroes wear those scandalously revealing costumes for a reason: as soon as they’re done getting beaten on by bad guys, they have an orgy. It takes a special mix of exhibitionism and masochism to dress like that while doing what we SEE them do. Why do you think as soon as the X-Men switched into restrictive leather ensembles they all got so depressed? They’re harder to get out of.


I just insert every superhero™ combination there is!Now that's entertainment!

This might just be my favorite column yet!

[dopplegager]

That about sums up what you see every time you see a letters page. Editors answering dumb questions that don't matter and no one really cars about. As for the comics dying out I sure hope that that doesn't happen for a very very long time.

[Paul Shinn]

Originally posted by Joel Phillips
Q: ...why is the comic book industry failing?

A: ...I think that really has to do with an audience that is growing out of comics (or getting tired of them, whichever way you want to put it), and a group of publishers who cannot capture enough new readers to replace them.

I really do feel as though I am a member of "an audience that is growing out of comics (or getting tired of them)"!

I've been a comic book fan, and a fan of Marvel in particular, since I was about 9 or 10. I'm now 23, coming up 24, and I must admit to a certain apathy towards comics. Where once i fevourishly devoured everything i could get my hands on, nowadays i find myself buying a remote few books, and not even showing a passing interest in anything else on offer.

Where once I would read anything with an X on the cover, now I'm reading only one or two x-titles a month.

Something like the upcoming Reload that would have once had me salivating at the prospect, now reduces me to a shrug and a sigh.

Is it that i'm just growing up? Or is it that i'm not being presented with anything new? There's only so many times i can watch things being rehashed and presented as new ideas, before i become completly uninterested in the whole thing!

[@@liy@h]

At Image… who cares?


:LOL:

[Jordan]

wow, that was one of the most enjoyable reads I've had in a long time

good job.

:J:

[Ryan Day]

Originally posted by Paul

Is it that i'm just growing up? Or is it that i'm not being presented with anything new? There's only so many times i can watch things being rehashed and presented as new ideas, before i become completly uninterested in the whole thing!

If you're just not interested in the combination of art & story, then yeah, maybe you're "growing out of it". But if you don't think there are enough new ideas or concepts out there, I'm going to respectfully suggest that you're not looking hard enough.

There is an incredible amount of diversity in comics right now. Vertigo gets a lot of press, and it's not all just Sandman stuff: Books like Y - The Last Man, 100 Bullets and The Losers can give you a great range of diversity. Take a look at some of the smaller publishers, like Oni, Slave Labor or Drawn & Quarterly.

I think I became a much happier comic reader when I stopped buying titles and started buying stories.

[Jordan T. Maxwell]

hmm...yeah, have to disagree on the last part. I think comic books are incredibly cool. anytime i'm reading a comic book in class or at rehearsals, people's attention is immediately drawn to it in a way that they wouldn't be if i was reading a John Grisham novel or a collection of Warhol prints. i think the kind of cult status we have as comic book readers can be interpreted as either "role playing Magic dealing Trekkie convention livin in your mama's basement never been laid dork" or "non traditional non conformist listening to albums by musicians who are better than half of what they play on the radio but half of the people in the world still haven't heard of intellectually engaging politically and pop minded artistic geek chic sexy." It's all in how you present yourself, really. like Morrison said, geek is the new cool.

oh, and comic books are an intensely vital and important medium of art and expression. They offer things that video games, movies and novels can't. They are their own entity and should be celebrated as such. Now, if we're asking why the superhero genre of comic books (since that seems to be the one predominantly discussed in Joel's column) is failing...it's not because it's not longer relevant or anything. It's because the conventions are outdated and a burden upon what is at the core one of the most fascinating genres ever created. The time has come for re-vision in superheroes...literally, to see them again, to envision them again and update them for a contemporary audience and culture. They're not failing...we just need a revolution. A real one, not just one in name.

[NicholasRogue]

Joel are you schitzophrenic? Or do you just like talking to yourself..... lol. Some characters I think should be Christian at least, we know Nighty's a depressed Roman Catholic.

[magiklover]

Originally posted by Joel Phillips

Q: One last question for you… why is the comic book industry failing?

A: I’m not sure it is, but I assume what you really mean is “why aren’t comics as financially successful as they used to be”. I think that really has to do with an audience that is growing out of comics (or getting tired of them, whichever way you want to put it), and a group of publishers who cannot capture enough new readers to replace them. I’m not an industry insider or a financial expert, but I know a few things just from the perspective of a reader and consumer. Consider the following:

For roughly the same cost as two monthly comic book titles for a year, you can buy a brand new video game. Even the shortest video games provide more entertainment hours than comic books, and many of them are better written (which is pretty sad). Many, if not most video games have a multiplayer component that transforms them from solitary entertainment to social event. What’s more, even the best comic book can only be reread so many times, while the average video game has at least some built-in replay value.

Comics aren’t cool, and never will be. The people who read comics do so with an understanding that this part of their lives diminishes their overall cool quotient (as does using the phrase “cool quotient”). This outsider status, which comics share with RPGs or science fiction, keeps a mainstream audience away. Try as comic book publishers might to find a solution to this problem, there isn’t one: the majority of non-readers are not potential readers because they will never, ever pick up a comic book.

Comic books, sadly, are a nearly obsolete art form. Books allow a greater insight into their characters minds and souls, because they can devote more time to interior monologue, or even to regular dialogue, than a comic book can before the page becomes cluttered with word balloons. And movies or TV can handle special effects, action and adventure far better than static images on a page.

Adults think comics are for kids, and yet most comics aren’t for kids at all. Thus adults won’t try most comics, and kids can’t try most comics, because they are instantly recognizable to parents as inappropriate.

I see the industry not so much failing as a company would fail, with money drying up and the company going under, but dying slowly as an art form dies, as technology and taste moves away from it until there’s simply not enough interest from readers or creators to keep the medium going with the regularity required of a major company. There won’t be a time when nobody is making comic books (at least not soon), but there will be a time when major companies, titles, franchises and licenses die, because there simply isn’t enough interest to produce comic books on the regular schedule such things require to survive.





Great Article Joel, an enjoyable read

I believe i fit in the comic readers who are growing tired or out of comics... and i believe its the fact of the constant rehashing of similar stories and over saturation of characters. When i first read comics i loved them all because it all seemed so fresh... but constant backissue mongering has led me to read every x-men story ever written... and lots of spider-man as well. After reading more and more... your tastes mature and you form more opinions about what is good or bad. Also after reading so many comics you see patterns... and get sick of constant deaths and rebirths of major characters and villians...

But what happens is the comic book market tries to bring in new readers from fans of their cartoons or movies... and these movie fans want to see their fave characters... and if they are dead in the comics... stories are retconned to have another rehash with another famous villian.

Also, a majority of comics have had what could be considered a penultimate story arc which will probably never be lived up to again. like Spider-man for example... the death of Gwen Stacy... nothing in my eyes could match up with it.. it was the most powerful moment in comics for me... and bringing the goblin back after that was folly... but of course it will always happen. Same with the X-men... the Dark Phoenix saga was 25 years ago now and it still rates as the number one story in x-men history.

Also, the constant reloading of team books is another turnoff for me... not because of a new direction...which is fine... not because of a new creative team.. whihc can be fun... but what once was a team which every new or leaving member was once explained... now with a new creative team new characters join and old ones leave with no explanation.. leaving us to wonder whered they go? I do not see the point of jsut because you have a new creator you must change the team your first issue.

And i loved your point about technology coming in and replacing comics... with the special effects of movies and TV...what once could only be seen on the pages of comic books(people flying with wings...Eye beams and claws extending from human hands) can now be implemented in a movie or tv. And when you can play a video game... with an indepth story... hours of play time and actually use super powers instead of just seeing them on a static page.

Dont get me wrong i still like comics and they have been a huge part of my life... but after a while they do get old... or maybe i just did.

Edit: This post is geared toward superhero comics not the whole comics medium.. thanks :D

[§tormy]

I don't accept 'growing up' as a reason for not reading comics, there's plenty of older people out there who read comics, you may just grow apart from comics. Like say you've needed your money for other more important things and for a few weeks, even months you may not be reading any comics, when you finally do get the chance to buy another comic, you may not feel you want/need to, because you've been away for so long, I think we've also just been through a period of where you couldn't be away from comics for a while then just come by and pick one up, because alot of the things now seem to be running storylines, so you would be pretty confused.

Non-potential readers...yeah, alot of people wouldn't step near a comic, while others think they're pretty cool but still wouldn't buy one, they'd rather do something else. I'm one of the few people who reads comics, and I'm always asked questions about certain titles or characters, just out of interest, so they may be potential audiences out there.

I mean, 98% of the populace know of some super-hero, more likely Spider-Man, Hulk and Wolverine than anyone else.

I sure as hell hope the comic industry doesn't die out during my lifespan.

[ScottyM]

That whole sex thing is the greatest

[Dan]

"Growing out of comics" is like "growing out of movies", "growing out of television", or "growing out of books". It's ridiculous.

Comics are a medium. There's an infinite variety of content within the medium, and it's a safe bet that for any person you pick, there's content out there that's too mature and intelligent for them, just as there's content that they would find childish.

I was going to rant at magiklover for mistaking Marvel and DC superhero comics for the whole medium of comics, but then I caught the little edit at the end, which deflects my rant a bit.

Can comics compete with TV/video games/prose/movies/what have you? No. Any more than any of those can compete with comics. Each medium has it's advantages and limitations. Each medium has it's share of lowest-common denominator dreck content, and each is able to rise above it.

Is it possible for "the comics industry" as we know it, with two "big" publishers focused mainly on superhero books, a single major distributor, and a couple thousand dedicated retail units to die? Certainly. It's perhaps even inevitable that this system will collapse, eventually. However, that has as much to do with the survival of comics as what a yak in Mongolia had for breakfast yesterday. It even has little to do with the survival of comics featuring the major superhero characters.

If DC and Marvel went belly up this very minute, Diamond went with them, and all of the comic shops went kaput, someone, somewhere, would keep producing comics, some of them featuring the "big" characters, and in many cases, they'd actually be better than what we currently get, freed from some of the limitations of corporate comics.

[x-ploited]

Comics aren’t cool, and never will be. The people who read comics do so with an understanding that this part of their lives diminishes their overall cool quotient (as does using the phrase “cool quotient”).

I have a problem with this. This seems to be a stigma on the comicbook industry that is self-propelling. The only time that I hear comicbook readers refered to as geeks is when they say it about themselves.
I've never been one of these "outsiders", never had problems being popular in school. Definatly never had a problem getting women( but the other end of the spectrum can be a problem in itself). And now in my life I'm 30 years old, blonde hair, blue eyed. I live with two women drive a Corvette, and I'm a hugh comic book fan. Have been ever since '84.
So enough with the sterotypes. And if there are people out there that are thinking I'm a geek behind my back who cares. I don't live my life based on the opinons of others, I don't have time. And I know this may not be the best policy for a business that relys
on the public. But I think the comic publishers should focus on what the people that read them want and not what they think the "mainstream" public thinks is cool.

anytime i'm reading a comic book in class or at rehearsals, people's attention is immediately drawn to it in a way that they wouldn't be if i was reading a John Grisham novel or a collection of Warhol prints.

I was in a Hooters with some friends. I had just picked up my week's worth of comics and was reading some Transformer issue at the table. One of the waitresses walked by and asked if see could read my comic while she was on her break. Of course I obliged.

[callchuck]

I collected comics at age 4 to 18 approx. Looked for back issues and keeped up my collection, I quite in the 90' when Image came along(I mean that time period really sucked) i recently got back into it by accident, a friend told me about a new Avengers story called Avengers Forever. That was one of the best Avengers stories ever, so I started picking up Avengers just for the writer, Kurt Busiek left so I left, he's writting Conan now guess what I'm picking up....Conan, there' other writer' too I'll follow(not many) Mark Millar is one(Wanted is really good). My point is, as i read some of the message' in these forums that there is allot of people out there that are like me; they follow the story not the series; the writer not the character(or artist unless it's Jim Lee).
The only thing that sucks about my philosophy of collecting a limited amount of comics is THAT MARVEL KEEPS DELAYING THE RELEASE DATE OF THE ONES I COLLECT, it's almost as if they know and want me to pick up other titles to keep me happy in the meantime.

[Joel Phillips]

Originally posted by Dan
Can comics compete with TV/video games/prose/movies/what have you? No. Any more than any of those can compete with comics. Each medium has it's advantages and limitations. Each medium has it's share of lowest-common denominator dreck content, and each is able to rise above it.

And yet video game publishers and movie makers are making more money than ever before, and comic book publishers aren't. Why do you think that is? Are movie producers just superior businessmen compared to comic book publishers? Or is it that everyone watches movies, while comics are a niche product. Frankly the level of dreck vs. quality is irrelevent to the issue. A movie has the potential to attract an audience drawn from just about everyone on the planet. A comic book, no matter how good it is, has a far more limited number of potential consumers to draw from. Again, why is that? Because for what most people want out of entertainment, comic books are vastly inferior to nearly every other medium out there.

Is it possible for &quot;the comics industry&quot; as we know it, with two &quot;big&quot; publishers focused mainly on superhero books, a single major distributor, and a couple thousand dedicated retail units to die? Certainly. It's perhaps even inevitable that this system will collapse, eventually. However, that has as much to do with the survival of comics as what a yak in Mongolia had for breakfast yesterday. It even has little to do with the survival of comics featuring the major superhero characters.

If DC and Marvel went belly up this very minute, Diamond went with them, and all of the comic shops went kaput, someone, somewhere, would keep producing comics, some of them featuring the &quot;big&quot; characters, and in many cases, they'd actually be better than what we currently get, freed from some of the limitations of corporate comics.

What's cool about this part is how you got all indignant while basically repeating what I said in the column.

Let's look side by side. You said:

Is it possible for &quot;the comics industry&quot; as we know it, with two &quot;big&quot; publishers focused mainly on superhero books, a single major distributor, and a couple thousand dedicated retail units to die? Certainly. It's perhaps even inevitable that this system will collapse, eventually.

...If DC and Marvel went belly up this very minute, Diamond went with them, and all of the comic shops went kaput, someone, somewhere, would keep producing comics

I said:

There won’t be a time when nobody is making comic books (at least not soon), but there will be a time when major companies, titles, franchises and licenses die, because there simply isn’t enough interest to produce comic books on the regular schedule such things require to survive.

It's the same thing. Franchise comics are dying, because interest is waning and when interest wanes it becomes impossible to generate these titles on the kind of fixed, endless schedule they require. But as we both noted, there will still be someone producing comics about something... they just won't be regular, monthly comics about the same characters for the next forty years.


Originally posted by x-ploited
I have a problem with this. This seems to be a stigma on the comicbook industry that is self-propelling. The only time that I hear comicbook readers refered to as geeks is when they say it about themselves.
I've never been one of these &quot;outsiders&quot;, never had problems being popular in school. Definatly never had a problem getting women( but the other end of the spectrum can be a problem in itself). And now in my life I'm 30 years old, blonde hair, blue eyed. I live with two women drive a Corvette, and I'm a hugh comic book fan. Have been ever since '84.
So enough with the sterotypes. And if there are people out there that are thinking I'm a geek behind my back who cares. I don't live my life based on the opinons of others, I don't have time. And I know this may not be the best policy for a business that relys
on the public. But I think the comic publishers should focus on what the people that read them want and not what they think the &quot;mainstream&quot; public thinks is cool.

I didn't point out that comics aren't cool because I'm worried about what people might be saying about me behind my back, I pointed out that comics aren't cool because that's why a lot of people won't try them. The stigma is a real one, whether it is deserved or not, and that keeps many people away. It's one of several factors I listed at the end that prevent comics from being as financially viable as other mediums: smaller potential audience. Your last sentence says it all: 'I think the comic publishers should focus on what the people that read them want and not what they think the &quot;mainstream&quot; public thinks is cool.' Whether you think it's deserved or not, you recognize that there is a difference between what comics provide to their readers and what the mainstream public thinks is cool. That difference, semantic to you or I, is very real to comic book companies unable to reach new demographics.

[magiklover]

Originally posted by x-ploited


. And now in my life I'm 30 years old, blonde hair, blue eyed. I live with two women drive a Corvette, and I'm a hugh comic book fan.



Maybe i am misinterpreting but is this supposed to mean if u have blonde hair and blue eyes and a corvette makes u cool?

And to think all this time i thought having interesting ideas, a good sense of humor and being a fun guy made me cool.... and all i had to do was dye my hair get blue contacts and a corvette. :rolleyes:

And to clarify myself(which i really wish id have to stop doing if people would read the wording better.)I said i was getting sick of comics not that i was getting too old for them, only at the end of my post did i ponder whether it was if the comics were getting old or if i was(meaning the optimism of youth may have passed me).

And growing tired of comics i believe is a major factor of the decline in financial success of comics... Books based on 60s(or earlier) super heroes still dominate the distribution lists and being on the market for over 40 years i believe that one can easily become tired of them... As well as IF movies or books or televisions had the same ongoings for 40 years... one would grow tired of them... Thats the reason even a good TV series usually only lasts about 7 years... and why having more and more sequels usually ends in disaster(Rocky 5 anyone?) i never said comics are dead.. or there arent many great books or ideas out there. But they do not sell well generally... and i thought the article was talking about the financial decline of comics... and if that decline continues the comics industry would fail. So unless a total revamp of the superhero genre takes place... or if comics focus more on stories than on selling the characters... i believe comics will continue to decline as an industry.

[Citizen Zemo]

Originally posted by Joel Phillips
&lt;img src=&quot;http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/images/columns/ritlogo.jpg&quot; align=left width=115 height=100 border=0 alt=&quot;Reeding Into Things&quot;&gt;By Joel Phillips, old_ky_shark@hotmail.com

Q: Do comic book characters go to the bathroom?

A: Yes, in that characters relieve themselves, and yes in that, at some point, we’ve seen many of these characters in or around a bathroom. That said most characters prefer to just pee in the spaces between the panels when nobody’s looking… yes, even the women.

Too bad, thats alot of wasted Bathroom Humor potential right there

[ImpossibleM]

Great article, Joel, you've distilled your trademark smarminess into an enjoyable article that's been generating great discussion.

I think that my own tastes have certainly changed. I remember being enthralled with, for example, Inferno when it came out (I was in middle school). Flipping through it now, though, I can see that it's ... just a comic book story. Still, I love comics, even though I think they very, very rarely surpass a certain artistic threshold, as with works like Maus or Jimmy Coorigan. I'd almost compare comics with t.v. versus film, comics being the former--mostly enjoyable but not very substantial, sometimes authentically great.

And, yes, I think a genre of art can die, just as history has shown us. I'm sure there's a small niche for vaudiville, but it's pretty small. Or even opera, which I love, there are rarely new works of substance coming out of the woodwork, most houses play the old war horses. And, as with classical music in general, most folks sitting for a live performance are older than my grandfather. But just like opera, I don't think comics are dying, though the diminishing sales obviously point to a problem the publishers need to work out.

As for the "cool" question ... Yes, it's a stereotype, just as RPGers (I did that, too) are supposedly "uncool," but, as with any stereotype, just do whatever you want, it don't mean a thing. When I was young I intentionally did poorly at math because everyone and their mother expected a math god (I'm of Asian decent), and, suffice to say, I wish I hadn't allowed that crap to get to me.

[russbrett77]

Joel,

You are my new god. I have already built an altar and will begin sacrificing virgins on Friday nights to remain in your good standing. Thank you, oh merciful lord.

Baruch ata Joel, eloheinu melech haolum. Amen.

As for why comics are failing as an industry...

I actually have a lengthy post about this. But since I do my best thinking in the bathroom, it will unfortunately remain between the panels of this thread.

But to summarize: I blame the internet. Stupid fan-boys and their message boards.

*looks around* Uhm... heh... never mind.

(A word of advice to ALL. If you haven't read Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics and Reinventing Comics, do so immediately. I guarantee you, you will learn more about the industry and art form of comics from these books than you ever will by only reading comics)

[Joel Phillips]

Originally posted by ImpossibleM
Great article, Joel, you've distilled your trademark smarminess into an enjoyable article that's been generating great discussion.


Originally posted by russbrett77
Joel,

You are my new god. I have already built an altar and will begin sacrificing virgins on Friday nights to remain in your good standing. Thank you, oh merciful lord.


These two compliments, taken together, amuse me quite a bit, for reasons I'm not entirely certain I understand. But thank you anyway, they gave me a chuckle.

[Victoronehalf]

Originally posted by Joel Phillips

I didn't point out that comics aren't cool because I'm worried about what people might be saying about me behind my back, I pointed out that comics aren't cool because that's why a lot of people won't try them. The stigma is a real one, whether it is deserved or not, and that keeps many people away. It's one of several factors I listed at the end that prevent comics from being as financially viable as other mediums: smaller potential audience. Your last sentence says it all: 'I think the comic publishers should focus on what the people that read them want and not what they think the &amp;quot;mainstream&amp;quot; public thinks is cool.' Whether you think it's deserved or not, you recognize that there is a difference between what comics provide to their readers and what the mainstream public thinks is cool. That difference, semantic to you or I, is very real to comic book companies unable to reach new demographics.

I personally think that the "coolness" factor depends on the comic you're reading. Being seen reading Box Office Poison, Strangers in Paradise, or X-Statix is going to get a much different reaction than being seen reading Emma Frost (regardless of what's inside).

So kids, you have the power! Do you want to be labeled as "Trendy New Bohemian" or "Mental Midget"? Choose the comics you read in public carefully!

[Zeb Aslam]

I have to say I'm one of those people who is getting tired of/losing interest in the comic industry. And I don't care. The main point is that this isn't the first time it's happened to me...I tend to lose interest for a while...2-6 months at a time and then someone hands me a comic or I'm at a book store and I see a comic and I'm hooked again. It's not a matter of getting tired...It's more a matter of getting frustrated. The constant rehashes get to me and I need a break every once in a while. Leaving that...I must say that the comic environment these days is very conductive towards keeping a hold of you even if you need a break from a certain title every few months. I get tired of X-men...I drop them and instead read Love Fights. I lose interest in Batman...I drop it and read Queen and Country or Y-The Last Man...you get the idea. I'll be the first one to admit that I probably fall in the 'geek' category, but not because of comics...but because I don't conform to the norm, and where I live, non-conformity=outsider=geek. I will also add that while I'm losing interest in comics...in a vain attempt to regain it, and maybe find new, better books, I bought 50 different new comics last month. Of these, I was actually quite surprised by 30 of them which I would like to continue buying on a regular basis, financial conditions permitting. And only 5 of these were ones I bought every month, out of my usual 10. Trust me, it isn't a matter of growing out of comics, it's more a matter of finding a comic which fits your tastes. And great column Joel...The anaylsis of the industry was particularly nicely handled.

[mackaybear]

Comics failiing. Yes, we've heard that before. But this time might be for real. Content shrinks, even as prices escalate. The importancy of characters and/or story is waining as the "hot" creators escalate in importance. The big two don't seem to know who or what their audience is/are. Chasing a younger group of readers at the expense of older readers. I know that makes for a problem for the companies. Getting younger readers or new readers seems to be the main result of Marvel's Ultimate line.

Then again younger and/or new readers are essential to the survival of the medium Maybe geting digest type younger reader versions of comics into 7-11s or grocery or toy stores. Or even Target or Walmart. Keeping from alienating a basically more loyal older fan base would help.

I think however comics return to the anthology format of their beginnings. It's worked with some indepents. A larger page count with multiple character/series for a somewhat higher price.
Look at the popularity of Shonen Jump. The Barnes and Nobles by me recently cleared out their Graphic Novels for manga and manga anthologies. Border's is working on doing the same.
The "mainstream" industy is adverse to change. Some comics readers are terribly adverse to change as well. They'll keep making the same "pathetic recycling style changes" while people desert in droves.

But maybe they've lost interest in comics too. Marvel seems to prefer making movies with their characters. And protecting them
in order to sell them to Hollywood. DC sees their established characters as "brands". To read the recent interview with Dan Didio. Expanding into other media is great, but only if you don't forget what made the characters.


Sorry guess I'm in one of my more curmudgeonly mood.
However, I loved the column. So far it's been the bright spot of my day.

[Scots Fan]

Your comment that every character's religion being Jewish I don't think is entirely true.

While the majority of creators my have been Jewish I don't think that makes their characters Jewish, sure many may be written with Judism undertones but thats because of the writers, it would be the same as a Catholic, Muslin or Hindu writing, they're going to (maybe with knowing it) write there characters with hints of there religion because it what they are it doesn't mean their character is that religion. Maybe you could call this bad writing but I wouldn't because your are always going to put a little of yourself into any character you write.

As a person of the Catholic faith I would say that a number of characters show parts that are Catholic for example Matt Murdock, Peter Parker, Scott Summers, Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson all to me would seem to be Catholic or at least have some of the underlining principles of Catholism.

Not being Jewish and therefore only having a limit knowledge on the subject I can't say with accuracy what character would have underlining Jewish qualities but I would say that Superman, Magneto, the X-Men as a group entity (not the individuals in it) and Aunt May all show aspects of this.

This is just my opinion on that matter which my be trival and I hope I don't offend any body with it but I just feel that to say because the writers that created them were Jewish then the characters themselves are Jewish isn't really a good reason to base it on thats all.

[Ryan Day]

Originally posted by mackaybear
Comics failiing. Yes, we've heard that before. But this time might be for real.

Well, that depends on how you define "comics" and "failing."

Monthly superhero "pamphlet"-format comics certainly seem to be failing, but as you say, that's happened before.

But at the same time, "comics" as a whole are broadening their scope and audience. Spider-Man beating up the Green Goblin is probably about as cool as it's ever been, but at the same time, Endless Nights did huge business outside the usual comic store. You can pick up a newspaper and find articles about Chester Brown or Joe Sacco written with the same respect and tone reserved for "real" authors.

There's never going to be a time when everybody's reading comic books, but there'll never be a time when everybody's reading any books at all.

[Joel Phillips]

Originally posted by Scots Fan
Your comment that every character's religion being Jewish I don't think is entirely true.

It wasn't meant to be true, just to raise the idea that you went on to talk about (creators infusing aspects of themselves into many of their characters). I didn't mean that the characters are all actually Jewish because obviously they aren't.

Not being Jewish and therefore only having a limit knowledge on the subject I can't say with accuracy what character would have underlining Jewish qualities but I would say that Superman, Magneto, the X-Men as a group entity (not the individuals in it) and Aunt May all show aspects of this.

Aunt May? Can't say I get that one, but OK. Anyway I am Jewish, and there are many others I'd add, chief amongst them being Ben Grimm. I swear he's the single most Jewish character I've ever read that wasn't wearing a yarmulke. Plus if my memory serves me correctly I believe his visual design as Thing was based off the tale of the golem, from Jewish folklore.

[Alex Groff]

I disagree with a lot of what this column has to say.

First, I'm with Jordan on the issue of coolness: if the idea is to say that something is not mainstream, then I agree, comics are a niche market only slightly different than art galleries and folktronica or glitch-hop (or any other underground music scene.) However, those who hear Four Tet or Prefuse 73-- those who see someone reading a fine-looking comic-- understand the cool nature of the content. Whether or not something is mainstream only has a vague correlation with its "coolness."

Second, the issue with the industry shrinking, I think, has little or nothing to do with readers "growing out of" comics. It comes from shortsightedness on the part of stores and publishers, and the lack of a solid outreach program. Comics are a niche market, and I do think it's fair to say that we will never sell as well as DVDs, because reading itself is a niche hobby. But to assume that this status implies impending doom, that readers will inherently become bored with the format, is a baseless assertion.

Follow this logic for a paragraph or two: poor quality movies sell poorly. Look at the results of Gigli. The same is true for books, but the same is not true for tv shows and comics. TV shows have a following, and a marginal number of that following will follow no matter what. Their opinions are unimportant, because they will follow an offensively bad series-- be it Star Trek's latest flop, Enterprise, or the current run on Uncanny X-Men-- with dedication. While this marginal group should be ignored—after all, anyone who complains about a book and then buys it proves that their opinion has no relationship with their purchasing power, ergo no value—while this marginal group should be ignored, instead they have become the driving force in comics today. The TV show Seinfeld (sp?) quit while it was still popular. If it were a comic, or a Star Trek series, it would be on for at least 5 more years, and then follow with a spin-off named "Kramer," then another named "George." The logic is that two series that sell 50,000 issue are better than one series that sells 80,000 issues. Marvel's upcoming X-Men: RETREAD in May reflects this thinking. And it's this thinking, if anything, that will lead to the failure of comics.

What Seinfeld understood was that quality was more important. THE SANDMAN was a meaningful story, a good story, and succeeds even today as tpbs continue to sell. The follow-up, THE DREAMING, which attempted to reap the success of THE SANDMAN without the quality of story attached, floundered and died. I use the fact that there have been zero tpbs offered as proof, and I still argue it lasted far longer than it should have in singles. Yes, having 5 Spiderman titles means that the marginal group will buy them, but it also wards off any new readers, decreases the number of good stories, and increases the chance of reader burnout. Readers, or movie-goers, don't get tired of quality work. What leads to reader burnout is poor quality work, or an overload of mediocre work. (And mediocre work includes stories that are okay, but not great. Morrison, love or hate him, delivered something that was constantly meaningful, changing, epic. Compare that to Kelly and Seagle's X run: what meaningful changes occurred? What would have happened if they had not written their runs?) The problem is a lack of high-quality work, and a willingness to promote low quality work with the same passion as high quality work. I left comics when I found the X-books to be pointless and borderline nonsensical (between the period of Onslaught and Morrison's return). I'm certain that many others like me simply didn't return.

It's not because we're tired of comics. It's because we're tired of bad comics.

Comics can grow, but it requires a different frame of mind than Buckley or Jemas has/had. We hit a rough spot, but we need to keep forging ahead instead of moving backwards. We need to get past our own insecurities that comics are inferior (or perceived as inferior) to other mediums, and to start looking at what comics should comics be (quality), what comics can be (diversity), and how we can start sharing that with other people (outreach).

(As a corollary to outreach, somewhat unrelated): advertising is not effective outreach. A study of the effects of the "Got Milk" campaign showed a nominal change in purchasing. The most effective outreach is individual, and small scale. Give your children/siblings comics. (I wholeheartedly recommend GRUMPY OLD MONSTERS for kids. Its monsters, its humor, and my little cousin loves it.) There is a professor in Pennsylvania or Ohio who has written comic textbooks on biology. That is outreach. I used TRANSMETROPOLITAN in my psychology class, and I hope to use at least a few comics in my world history class. Outreach means meaningful exposure, which a billboard passed at 60mph is not. We need comics in music stores and comics back in Walmarts and we need stores with the courage to take a chance on books that no one's ever heard of. Outreach is saying "Hi, I think you'll like this book," and handing it to someone you know, or someone you've met, even only once. Anything short of that is simply bullsh*t posturing and background noise.

So, yeah Joel, ya gots me thinkin' 'gain. Ma brain hurts now—thinkin' its time for a nap. Or coffee. Or both.

[raul grau]

I also disagreed with a few points of the article, but I find more to disagree with in your post, Alex. :)

Originally posted by Alex Groff
poor quality movies sell poorly. Look at the results of Gigli. The same is true for books

I think this is (unfortunately) blatantly untrue. I wish poorly made movies really did sell poorly, but we live in a world where horribly written, poorly acted disposable flicks become blockbusters (Armageddon, the recent Star Wars chapters, etc), while brilliant films get a fringe audience. Gigli was a welcome exception to this terrible trend. As for books, Michael Crichton has proven that he can now push random keys on a typewriter creating a nonsensical work, yet reach the best seller list every time, probably because of his past brilliance.

Originally posted by Alex Groff
While this marginal group should be ignored—after all, anyone who complains about a book and then buys it proves that their opinion has no relationship with their purchasing power, ergo no value

You are forgetting about the folks who complain vigorously about works (be they comic books or tv shows), because they enjoy them so much. I am the first to whine incessantly about the slightest drop of quality on 24, yet I would never miss an episode because the show remains very enjoyable.

Originally posted by Alex Groff
THE DREAMING, which attempted to reap the success of THE SANDMAN without the quality of story attached, floundered and died. I use the fact that there have been zero tpbs offered as proof, and I still argue it lasted far longer than it should have in singles.

First off, there were several tpbs for the Dreaming, among them Through the Gates of Horn & Ivory, a brilliant arc. Secondly, the Dreaming did not attempt to reap the success of Sandman, it didn't even attempt to replicate its format. It was a completely separate animal, which did manage to have a fairly lengthy run, and inspire several spin-offs, on its own merits.

Originally posted by Alex Groff
I left comics when I found the X-books to be pointless and borderline nonsensical (between the period of Onslaught and Morrison's return). I'm certain that many others like me simply didn't return...It's not because we're tired of comics. It's because we're tired of bad comics.

I also stopped reading X-men comics with Onslaught too, because I was tired of terrible stories trying to pass for something more meaningful. I stopped reading X-Men comics, not comics entirely.

The number of comic book readers has certainly decreased. Some left because they did not see the breath of material outside of the X-Men. Some because they 'grew up', as many claim to do. And some just because the cost of monthly books continues to rise.

As I've seen pointed out elsewhere, some people just won't read comic books even if there was a book published that was written with only them as the target audience. My girlfriend, for one, would probably still refuse to read one if her life depended on it. So what does the future hold for an industry which is a niche market of a niche market? Unfortunately, I have no idea. :)

- Raul

[Alex Groff]

It seems there were some moments lacking clarity in my original post: I thank Raul for pointing them out. (Now watch as I flame Raul mercilessly for daring to challenge my authority! Bwahaha. Oops, was that out loud?) Honestly, I think we can all agree to disagree, and my hope is that I don't offend anyone with my vehemence.

Originally posted by jcknite
I think this is (unfortunately) blatantly untrue. I wish poorly made movies really did sell poorly, but we live in a world where horribly written, poorly acted disposable flicks become blockbusters (Armageddon, the recent Star Wars chapters, etc), while brilliant films get a fringe audience. Gigli was a welcome exception to this terrible trend. As for books, Michael Crichton has proven that he can now push random keys on a typewriter creating a nonsensical work, yet reach the best seller list every time, probably because of his past brilliance.

Armageddon was a good film in that it did exactly what it intended to do. It was meant to be content-free escapism, and it succeeding in drawing an audience looking for what a friend of mine called "brain candy" (high carb, no content). We could argue whether All the Real Girls was a better film than Titanic as far as acting, scripting, et&c., but the issue is: Titanic was a love story geared towards middle and high schoolers, and it drew them in. Titanic was a good film because it accomplished exactly what it intended to do.

In writing workshops, we have a simple rule for critiquing: If someone builds a brick house, do not tell them it should have been made out of wood. Tell them why it works and why it doesn't work, as a brick house. Armageddon was not intended as a statement of environmental awareness or an example of exemplary dialogue; it was escapism, and as escapism it worked. Waterworld was another example of escapism, but it failed because it wasn’t well-done. The same can be said for Red Planet vs. Mission to Mars. It may not be your kind of film—I would watch All the Real Girls before Titanic any day, but that doesn’t make it bad.

Quality here is not an issue of tastes, but an issue of effectiveness. “Quality” probably also isn’t a good word, but until I find a better one, I will simply apologize and keep using it. I am sorry for any confusion the word “quality” creates.

What does this mean for comics? It means that spandex is not inherently bad or inherently good. It means that an issue with a fight between two friends having a misunderstanding is not good or bad. Having an issue of mainly dialogue is not good or bad. These are all issues of individual tastes. The only thing we can judge here is whether the writing and art supports the content. It is a crossover that was worth reading, or a garbled mess of quasi-related issues spun around a harebrained plot? That’s where quality comes into play.

(Exceptions, as with Star Wars, go back to the idea of a marginal following that will read/watch dreck in spite of the fact that it is miserably bad and they know it is miserably bad. Which goes with your next comment.)

You are forgetting about the folks who complain vigorously about works (be they comic books or tv shows), because they enjoy them so much. I am the first to whine incessantly about the slightest drop of quality on 24, yet I would never miss an episode because the show remains very enjoyable.

If you enjoy a show and there is a slight drop in quality, then complaining is fair. I‘m all for that. Watching a show regularly does not make you a part of the marginal group; it makes you a fan of the show. Fan and fanboy are two completely different things. The issue here, however, is if you actively despise a book, complain about it vehemently and with regularity, and then continue to buy it. If you will buy something you hate, or rather if I am still making money on something you hate, why would I change it? I truly believe that the reason that Waid remained on Fantastic Four is because Marvel believed that readers would stop buying the book. I also believe that the reason that Austen is still on a top selling book is because, even though people dislike his writing, they continue to buy it. It has nothing to do with Austen as a person, and everything to do with the money involved. After all, you can’t pay the rent with an opinion.

First off, there were several tpbs for the Dreaming, among them Through the Gates of Horn &amp; Ivory, a brilliant arc. Secondly, the Dreaming did not attempt to reap the success of Sandman, it didn't even attempt to replicate its format. It was a completely separate animal, which did manage to have a fairly lengthy run, and inspire several spin-offs, on its own merits.

I was wrong here, and I apologize. I found the book odious, but as I said above, the issue is not taste. Sorry. There are examples of books that lasted overlong because of their connection to other, better books—but The Dreaming is apparently not one of them.

I also stopped reading X-men comics with Onslaught too, because I was tired of terrible stories trying to pass for something more meaningful. I stopped reading X-Men comics, not comics entirely.

Again, I was unclear here, so allow me to clarify. If I quit reading X comics with the RELOAD (which I very well might), I would still be reading independent and small press comics. However, when I first quit, I didn’t know about independent comics. I knew about Superman, Batman and X-Men and all of them were pretty bad at the time. Many fans do not know about other options, so it’s easy to be turned off. That’s part of the reason I think outreach is important: it’s partially getting people to see that there are other books out there, to see what their options within the comics format are.

As I've seen pointed out elsewhere, some people just won't read comic books even if there was a book published that was written with only them as the target audience. My girlfriend, for one, would probably still refuse to read one if her life depended on it. So what does the future hold for an industry which is a niche market of a niche market? Unfortunately, I have no idea. :)

I have friends who would never go to see a show in a theatre, another niche market. (Another high-expense niche market). Yet there are school trips to see theatre shows and benefit shows and a variety of methods of outreach. If someone is not going to read comics, you’re right; they will not read comics. But if there are people who don’t have an opinion one way or the other, there needs to be a method of catching their attention.

The comic shop I go to donates comics to hospitals and courthouses. That means everyone on jury duty has the chance to pick up a comic book while they’re waiting. Movies are not outreach, because they’re not connected to the movie. After all, where do you buy comics about the movie? In a comic shop. If you really want to reach new readers, have theatres carry issues of Punisher when the movie comes out (and not the movie adaptation: they just watched it!).

Not everyone likes comics. That’s why we’re a niche market. But as with theatre and art galleries, we don’t have to shrivel up and die. It just means we have to produce quality work, produce a variety of work and find new ways to show people the potential of the medium.

All that said, I think we can agree to disagree on most of these points. Thanks for keeping me thinking, Raul and Joel.

[Paul Shinn]

Originally posted by Ryan Day
If you're just not interested in the combination of art &amp; story, then yeah, maybe you're &quot;growing out of it&quot;. But if you don't think there are enough new ideas or concepts out there, I'm going to respectfully suggest that you're not looking hard enough.

There is an incredible amount of diversity in comics right now. Vertigo gets a lot of press, and it's not all just Sandman stuff: Books like Y - The Last Man, 100 Bullets and The Losers can give you a great range of diversity. Take a look at some of the smaller publishers, like Oni, Slave Labor or Drawn &amp; Quarterly.

I think I became a much happier comic reader when I stopped buying titles and started buying stories.

...in replying to my post, you actually kind of said what i originally intended to say - i think being dosed up on cold-remedy effected my judgement somewhat. ;)

I agree totally with your final comment. "Stories" over "titles" is a much more rewarding experience. And there is a great deal of diversity out there at the moment, if only your willing to look for it.

[raul grau]

You are quite welcome, Alex, for keeping you on your intellectual toes and for mercilessly ripping your post to shreads. And I agree that we can agree to disagree about some of your points... but why should that stop me from ridiculing your ideas anyway? :)

I can see your point about the intention of a work being the true measuring stick of its quality (though from your Red Planet-Mission to Mars example, I find it impossible to tell which one you felt was the more effective one). :) As far as my personal taste goes, I preferred Mission, but I am unaware of which did better financially.

Originally posted by Alex Groff
The issue here, however, is if you actively despise a book, complain about it vehemently and with regularity, and then continue to buy it.

I understand your clarification between the difference between a typical fan and a rabid fanboy (and there has to be a difference or else we fans could never belittle fanboys). I can not comment specifically on Waid's run on Fantastic Four (since I never read it) or Austen's writing ability (since I do not believe I have read anything he has produced), but I do recognize the behavior you attribute to fanboys. It is quite like they have an addiction to a certain title or group, and they have a psychological need to receive their 'fix' even if they do not want to... even recognizing that this behavior is damaging to them (or at least their wallets).

Originally posted by Alex Groff
That’s part of the reason I think outreach is important: it’s partially getting people to see that there are other books out there, to see what their options within the comics format are.

I think the kind of outreach you are describing (introducing fanboys and the disenfranchised to the wealth of material beyond their normal scope) is unfortunately nearly impossible. It is not economically feasible for the Big publishers to even alert anyone to the fact that there is other material out there, since it could possibly cut into their own profits. And even some diehard comic book readers would rather eat their copy of X-Men: Onslaught than glance at a black and white book.

As for complete novices to the medium (the ones who would read comic books if given the right material), the methods you proposed do have merit. Though it would be in Marvel's best interest to have free copies of, for example, the regular Punisher series at theaters airing the new film, it would require a major investment, which would only be recouped if they did recruit enough new readers. That risk is more than enough of a reason for me to doubt it would ever happen. Conversely, giving out free Pokemon cards at a Pokemon movie entices fans to see the films, but the same is not true for people who would go see Punisher.

Originally posted by Alex Groff
But if there are people who don’t have an opinion one way or the other, there needs to be a method of catching their attention.

It's much like in politics.. to boaster your own numbers, you must attempt to recruit the fence-sitters. And just like in politics, the fence-sitters annoy me with their indecisiveness, and should only be pandered to in the event of desperation... which I think is the current state of the industry. :)

- Raul

[Alex Groff]

Mission did better. I mean, come on, Gary Sinese vs. Val Kilmer. Where's the contest? As for Waid and Austen, I was basing my argument on the message board reaction. The number of people stating (true or not) that they would boycott Marvel if they fired Waid was astounding. It sent a message that the "I don't like Austen but I buy the book for Larroca and Iceman" posts do not.

With outreach, I agree that some people will not try new kinds of books, but I think many people simply don't know about other books. Here it is a STORE's responsibility to increase exposure. I've been in comic shops that consider themselves cutting edge because they carry not only Marvel and DC, but also Image. Simply exposing people to other options would be an enormous step for a number of stores. It won't change the diehards, but as you said-- the diehards aren't our target. If one person sees a book like Demo and tries it, then we have success.

As for Punisher, why would it have to be free? If I saw an excellent movie for $15 ($8 for the ticket and $7 for the popcorn/drink combo), why would I care about $3 for a comic? It's the same record shop argument: If I just bought a $15 cd, that means I broke a $20, and could buy a $3 comic at the register. Preferably a Mahfood comic, because Mahfood of all people belongs in a record store.

(Yes, I want comic shops to succeed, but to do so we have to 1. get them to sell a variety of books, and 2. give people a reason to enter the store.) The 25 cent comics are a nice idea, but they ignore the real problem: those comics are available almost exclusively in comic shops. Who are you really enticing with those deals? People who are already in the know.

As for "fence-sitters," I don't think it's fence-sitters we're looking at, rather people with little or no exposure. It wasn't that I was "uncommited" when it came to indie comics: I simply didn't know they existed. My first store (when I started reading) didn't carry them; by the time that store closed and I went to a new store, I already had blinders on. I was shopping for X comics, and didn't notice other books. (If you're in Walmart for shampoo, are you going to notice their top of the line engine coolant?) Exposure is having a rack right by the entrance with "hot" comics on them, or having an "employee's pick," or someone saying, "I noticed you read this, have you ever thought about that?" Having a variety of books is only the first step-- making sure your readers know about that book is important, and its something that's harder to do. As for fence-sitters and some diehards, I don't worry about them. Why beat your head against a wall when you already know it will hurt?

Finally, I think the "state of desperation" argument is part of the problem. Everyone is so worried about surviving today that they're doing things (ex., oversaturation) that will hurt tomorrow. Things are not good-- yes, they may even be desperate-- but that's all the more reason for a level head and a plan of action that looks ahead.

There were aspects of Jemas' policy that I disagreed with, but I think the one thing I disagreed with the absolute most is being continued under Buckley. HYPE HYPE HYPE!!! and no content. Look, Marvel has its own previews, which hurts other companies. The refusal to have a presence at comicons. Desperation leads to the "every man for himself" attitude, a "cutting corners" attitude, when what we need is a sense of community. I think community, with message boards and comicons and expos, is the best thing comics have going for them, so I can't understand why the Big Two try to crush it every chance they get.

So tHere Raul-- you sux!!!1!! Stop makking me think. ICEMAN FOREVER!!!!

It's been a pleasure. Peace out.

[Rob Thay]

Good article, people need to take there books with a pinch of salt, there not real. Who cares if they have sex or who kicks the most arse, as long as the stories good.

One of the problems which I believe is costing a lot of readers is the strict adherence to continuity, how are you supposed to attract new readers if you need 40 years worth of knowledge to get into the book. I love reading the old 60's books without the glut of continuity to get my head around, and I've been reading comics for nearly 20 years.

I think some of the problems also stem from the early nineties when more emphasis was given to the art and not the stories. How can you grab someones interest for the long haul if all they are buying is a series of pictures of big breated women holding huge guns. It might work for a one off sale but once bitten twice shy. Solid stories and clear art work are the only way forward.

The best, most adventurous and easily accesable stories now are to be found in the independent titles and the mature reader titles. Hardly helpful in persuading younger, newstand readers. Marvel has had the right idea by introducing the Ultimate line, starting established characters from scratch. But I think that they have missed the boat by aiming these titles at older readers with the violence and story lines, especially in The Ultimates.

To conclude, the only way to draw in more, younger readers is to go back to basics. Have solid stories, clear art work and remember what got you into reading them in the first place, it's fantasy, it doesn't need to be rooted in the real world. How can you have escapism if your reading about the same place and problems that you encounter. (Social, not personal. What would Spider-man be if he didn't have our angst). I don't mean that all titles should change and that no social issues should be covered, but some titles should get back to simpler times to draw in new younger readers.

[raul grau]

Originally posted by Alex Groff
Mission did better. I mean, come on, Gary Sinese vs. Val Kilmer. Where's the contest?

I see your point... I mean how can the silly secret agent from Top Secret ever stand up to the brilliant actor who set a new standard for the entire craft by playing the antagonist in Reindeer Games. :)

Originally posted by Alex Groff
If one person sees a book like Demo and tries it, then we have success.

I completely agree that the independent labels need as many readers as can be corralled into perusing them, not just because they provide variety in a nearly homogeneous medium, but also to financially support the starving artists of our niche market. My only complaint is that a certain fan of Demo has yet to post to a certain very empty Demo thread in The Small Press begun by a certain other fan of Brian Wood's work. :)

Originally posted by Alex Groff
As for Punisher, why would it have to be free? If I saw an excellent movie for $15 ($8 for the ticket and $7 for the popcorn/drink combo), why would I care about $3 for a comic?

Well, it would require movie theaters to create a spinner rack section in a forum where reading is taboo, and have an employee staffing it to prevent the prerequisite theft. And why would a person who has never read Punisher (or possibly any comic book ever for that matter) pay $3 for something they obviously had no impulse to get in the first place?

Hmmm... I wonder why the store that only sold books from the Big Two closed its doors... quite the mystery. :)

Originally posted by Alex Groff
Things are not good... but that's all the more reason for a level head and a plan of action that looks ahead...I think community, with message boards and comicons and expos, is the best thing comics have going for them, so I can't understand why the Big Two try to crush it every chance they get.

The problem is that you are thinking of the situation as a fan who wants his favored forum for fictional frivolity to further (shame on you for thinking that way, and for using all of that alliteration). :) On the business side of things, the art of creative expression is always going to come second to the profitability of a particular brand of creative expression. And forming close ties with other companies is a bad idea if what you want is to put other companies out of business and absorb their character lines. Just like in high school, you can't be the coolest kid in class if you hang out with a kid who is cooler than you.

Originally posted by Alex Groff
ICEMAN FOREVER!!!!

Yeah! Go Bobby Drake! Yay for my avatar! Now if only I had read a book with Iceman in it more recently than 1997. :)

- Raul

[Alex Groff]

Demo thread? Hmmm... wandering over to the small press section. (I don't often get past the front page, to be honest, which is a shame.) Wandering now.....

I always thought the comics could be kept with the candy: after all, it's cheaper. Besides, if I saw a film that I thought was brilliant, I'd buy a book to try to get the most enjoyment out of it that I could. That's why I bought Ghost World, and I'm glad I did because the book is much better than the movie. (And the movie was pretty good.)

As for the no reading in theatres bit... hmmm.... there may be some truth to that. Clear Channel's grasp grows once again. Howard Stern's been pulled from the radio. I didn't like him, but that reeks of censorship.

And ya know, Casey's work on Uncanny X-Men-- being as Iceman came up-- not that bad. Started off weak, but damn if his X-Corps story wasn't top notch. Any other year, that story would have been top of the charts, but, between Morrison, Milligan and Tischman/Macan, he really didn't have a chance. Casey went from being forgettable at Marvel to really shining at Wildstorm and DC. He's one of the few mainstream writers I recommend, although I always wonder if I can call him mainstream. Hmmm, I don't think we're allowed to say damn, either. Ah well.

Joel? Where are you, Joel? Why won't you play with us? (No, not in a Catholic priest kind of way.) If you don't stop us soon, Raul and I are going to buy each other drinks and hit on all the ladies at Millarworld.

Cheers.

[Joel Phillips]

I don't know why you'd want to be stopped. This is intelligent, civil discourse on an online message board. How often is this gonna happen? Savor it.;)

[DCUnited]

Originally posted by Paul


I've been a comic book fan, and a fan of Marvel in particular, since I was about 9 or 10. I'm now 23, coming up 24, and I must admit to a certain apathy towards comics. Where once i fevourishly devoured everything i could get my hands on, nowadays i find myself buying a remote few books, and not even showing a passing interest in anything else on offer.

Where once I would read anything with an X on the cover, now I'm reading only one or two x-titles a month.

Something like the upcoming Reload that would have once had me salivating at the prospect, now reduces me to a shrug and a sigh.


I know that recently I've reduced the amount of comics I buy, but it's not because I'm growing out of them. I still love comics, I just can't afford to buy every cool thing that comes out so I have to look at what's going on (or going to be going on) in the book, who the writer is, and how the writer is writing the book. I know that once I did that to several of the books I used to buy I decided to drop them, because they just weren't worth buying any more, that or I didn't like what the writer was doing with it. As a result I end up prejudging comics before they come out. However, I don't have an unlimited supply of money so I can't afford to pick up every new series for myself and then decide if I like it or not. For me, and I'm sure a few others, the only chance that a comic book company has to hook me on a new title is with what they say about it before it comes out, because I simply do not have the resources necessary to buy everything that comes out that could potentially be good. So perhaps it's not so much that the audience is growing out of comics, but that they're realizing that they don't have all of the money to spend on comics that they used to have.

[raul grau]

Originally posted by Alex Groff
Besides, if I saw a film that I thought was brilliant, I'd buy a book to try to get the most enjoyment out of it that I could.

Yes, but you are part of that freaky fringe of society known as 'people who read for enjoyment'. I can also be slandered with that title, as I, for example, quickly read the original novels for Fight Club and High Fidelity after being impressed by their film adaptations (surprisingly, I found the movies to be better in both cases, but not by terribly much). I know so many folks who love and religiously watch Fight Club (I even began quite a few relationships with women over our mutual admiration for it :)), but very few of them would go out of their way to read the story form.

I believe that the only sure way to increase readership using popular comic book inspired movies is to give the books away to happy patrons without charge. Some of them will actually read them, some of those readers might actually enjoy them, and some of those who experienced enjoyment might actually choose to go to a comic book store to find out what happens next. That is precisely why a company would never use that marketing technique, far too much product given away on a national scale for possibly too little profit.

If you (or some other reader of this thread) decided to go out and do it on your own, that would be commendable. You could probably garner a discount from the distributor or from a local comic book shop or even Marvel itself, and possibly even get your local theater to front some of the cost if they believed it might sell more seats. The theater could advertise it as a special showing, and the human desire for free things could very well sell-out what might have been just an ordinary show, but more importantly, you could get to the uninitiated. And I can say that I helped inspire an action that saved the comic industry. :)

As for the current goings on in the world of X, I have no clue. When I quit reading X-Men with the debacle that was Onslaught, I stayed quit. :) Right now, I am a fan of NYX, but probably because it is as far from being a mainstream X-book, as Go was from being another cheesy holiday movie. In fact, Demo and NYX are the only regular monthly series I keep up with these days... I'm practically an outsider to the hobby now. :)

Originally posted by Alex Groff
If you don't stop us soon, Raul and I are going to buy each other drinks and hit on all the ladies at Millarworld.

You'll have to by the first round, as I'm only making teaching money right now. :)

Originally posted by Joel Phillips
I don't know why you'd want to be stopped. This is intelligent, civil discourse on an online message board. How often is this gonna happen? Savor it.;)

I know, it's just plain crazy, Joel. Who would ever have thought that the internet could be used as a forum for actual well-reasoned and non-confrontational discussion? Here I thought it was all just porn, spam, and flamewars. :)

Originally posted by DCUnited
So perhaps it's not so much that the audience is growing out of comics, but that they're realizing that they don't have all of the money to spend on comics that they used to have.

I have to agree with this. Ten years ago, I was spending roughly $40 a week, getting on average 40 or 50 titles a month. For the last few years, I was down to just one book a month, but now am all the way up to 2. Aside from being a 100% increase, it is a much more comfortable spending position than I was at back in the 80s and 90s.

- Raul

[Alex Groff]

A fellow teacher! Huzzah!

I limit myself to $20 a week, which lets me pick up a graphic novel and one or two good comics. // Really, there are some excellent comics out there, but you have to swim through a storeful of dreck to get to them. If I could point you towards a few I've been enjoying and hope you don't take offense; well, I will:

My Faith in Frankie has been unexpectedly funny. A romantic comedy, with gods and demons. A 4 part miniseries from Vertigo.

How Loathsome. This really depends on your tolerance for weird, because it deals with sexual deviancy-- but its an excellent book with solid characters and touching stories. A 4 part miniseries from NBM, soon to be collected.

Being as you like DEMO, I would also recommend Teenagers from Mars, which is sold out but soon to be collected in trade format. (I think by AiT-Planet Lar, just like DEMO.)

Chiaroscuro is a little known self-published book from Canada, and I'm at the point where I would buy 50 copies of his book and give them away to try and build him a following. This is the best, most human, most realistic comic I've ever read, but it has not been able to attract any attention to itself. If you're interested, check out www.meanwhilestudios.com. It follows an out of work artist as he actively avoids putting his life together. Excellent, excellent, excellent book.

And hopefully I haven't rambled us too far off course. (The fact that these books are not Diamond top ten says something very negative about the state of the industry, which is what this thread was about, right?)

[Anthony Zisa]

I used to think that death, doom, and implosion was imminent for DC and Marvel, but I've changed my mind in the past year or so. Mostly because comics seems to be cyclical, as Morrison and Millar have mentioned. I don't think they'll ever sell the numbers they used to, because the direct market just isn't the best way to reach consumers, but I do think they'll sell well enough to keep both companies afloat, produce some good material, and otherwise make everyone involved some money. People will go back and forth about the various reasons the industry is "dying," but other than the fact that singles aren't very readily available (although they seem to be penetrating outside of specialty shops more frequently), I don't think there are any concrete solutions. I mean, even getting outside the specialty shop has been accomplished in the past few years as both major publishers turn their eye to bookstore sales of collected editions and original graphic novels.

And, as far as the coolness factor, well, firstly, people are only as cool as they believe themselves to be, and secondly, who cares if comics are cool or not? I've never understood the drive to convince people that comics are "cool."

--acz

[Ann Nichols]

Originally posted by Anthony Zisa
And, as far as the coolness factor, well, firstly, people are only as cool as they believe themselves to be, and secondly, who cares if comics are cool or not? I've never understood the drive to convince people that comics are &quot;cool.&quot;

--acz

In 1964, when I turned 10, "Jonny Quest" was a prime time show. My parents got plenty of enjoyment from watching old cartoons that had been shown with movies when they were growing up. We could all watch "The Bullwinkle Show" or "The Flinstones" because, as with the old movie short cartoons, some of the elements were there for the kids and some for adults.

Then, somewhere along the way (late 60s? early 70s?), cartoons were declared for kids only. Worse, most of the classic 'toons were deemed too violent. Have you seen those old b&w "Popeye" cartoons on the Cartoon Network? They were shown on TV, uncensored, as perfectly acceptable kiddie fare when I was in grade school. (So were the 3 Stooges, BTW).

I never lost my love of animated adventures, but for a long time I had to put up with ridiculous reasons for non-violent action. "Battle of the Planets" remains, for me, an excellent example of a castrated dub. I watched "ThunderCats", "Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors", etc., but through gritted teeth. (I don't know about guys, but many female fans will put up with a lot of garbage in a show if they like the characters enough. Think of "Rat Patrol"...)


What happened? The Simpsons made cartoons for adults and children acceptable again. I am so happy. Comics are socially acceptable reading in Japan. Perhaps they could become so here.

[Siobhan]

This thread certainly makes interesting reading. ;)

I'm one of that much sought after breed, the new reader. A lot of you have said that you feel you may be drifting away from comics, for me it is the opposite. I used to watch the X-Men cartoons eight or nine years ago, but then fell into a really dark patch and have only just found my way out. I'm finally happy, and comics appear to be a big part of that.

Now I am finding myself reading more and more titles from the X-Men range, as well as exploring the older stories (I'm currently working my way through Essential X-Men vol. 2). To a new reader who hasn't been jaded by constant re-hashing of plot-lines it's all still rather exciting, and I must say that I find myself more than a little alarmed by the amount of people who seem to think that the industry is in a terminal decline.

I suppose I'll have to accept that one day I'm likely to get frustrated with the mainstream titles and move away to the peripherals, but I hope it doesn't happen anytime soon.:no:

[raul grau]

Well, let me welcome you, Siobhan, both to the board and to the hobby, and it is nice to know that someone else was reading what turned into our treatise on all pop culture. :) It is also good to hear that using characters outside of the medium (like in the old X-Men cartoon, for example) really does bring new readers into the fold.

And, yes, one day you will become bitter and jaded by most things mainstream... it is inevitable, so make sure to enjoy it now. :) You might still have many good years left in you though. It took me nearly 17 years of reading to get tired of the constant repetition of plotlines and the perception of change in place of actual change and the radical alterations of some characters and... hmmm, have to stop myself there before I get into another rant. :)

If you have any questions about any good, older books you might want to check out (inside or outside of the X-universe), I or most of the other folks around here would be more than happy to help. I haven't been on this board very long myself, but most people here seem rather friendly... unless you insult the X-Men, then apparently you're just wrong. :)

- Raul