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View Full Version : DID I THINK THAT OUT LOUD?!? #8: ANOTHER HUNDRED GREATEST MARVELS PART 1


Jim Lemoine
Feb 23, 2003, 09:51 pm
<img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/images/logos/dittol_logo.jpg" align=left width=115 height=100 border=0 alt="Did I Think That Out Loud?!? logo">By Jim Lemoine, darkkelf@earthlink.net

Once upon a time, there was a guy who worked at Marvel Comics named Bill. This particular Bill wasn't President of Marvel Comics: I'd venture to guess that he had too much writing ability and not enough of an obnoxious edge to qualify for that position. Instead, our Bill had the enviable job of coming up with neat marketing gimmicks and new ways to make Marvel cool, fun, and accessible for its readers. One of Bill's many creative ideas was a concept called "100 Greatest Marvels," in which fans all over the world got the chance to vote on which Marvel comic books throughout the company's long history deserved the honor of being called "The Greatest." Once the votes were in, said Bill, those best of the best would be reprinted for everyone to read and enjoy.

It was a great concept, but in some fans' opinions, it had poor follow-through. What was meant to be an exhibition of Marvel's greatest stories and art became little more than a listing of origin appearances and creator takeovers. Judging from the final results, people didn't vote for an issue based on how good the story was; they voted for it based on the fact that it was the first appearance of a neat concept or a favored character. I was a bit disappointed that only one of the books I supported made it onto the final 100 Greatest Marvels list, so I did a bit of research and ran some numbers. When I took a good look at Marvel's final list of what their fans thought was the best, I was convinced that we totally missed the boat on finding the real Greatest Marvels.

Of those Hundred Greatest Marvels as voted in by fans, over half (52) contained the first appearance of a character or team. Another ten were tied to a certain creator's first (or featured, #1 issue) work on a title, and nine more were death or wedding issues. Do the math, and that leaves just 29 of the Hundred Greatest Marvels to actually rely on great stories and art, just 29 that weren't dependent on a certain character or creator's first appearance. Of those 29, a whopping 19 were issues of the various mutant titles, mostly X-Men and Uncanny X-Men.

Being one of those rare Marvel fans that believes there's more to great Marvel storytelling than just X-Men stories, I have to take issue with these results. I simply can't rationalize several of the picks on the list... for instance, according to the voters, one of the 100 Greatest Marvels ever was Fantastic Four #18. Why? Because it was the first appearance of the Super-Skrull.

Ummm... hello? The Super-Skrull?

Now, I've read Fantastic Four #18, and while it was a decent story, can anybody here honestly tell me that it was a better read than, say, the Harry Osborn drug issues of Amazing Spider-Man? Or the court-martial of Yellowjacket in Avengers? Or the alcoholism storyline in Iron Man? The only reason I can think of why Fantastic Four #18 could possibly make the list would be because the Super-Skrull, if memory serves me, had recently had an appearance in the pages of Captain Marvel. I could be wrong, though.

The first appearance of the Vision made it onto the list as well. Again, the Vision is a good character, but that issue in and of itself really wasn't anything spectactular. No less mundane were other nominated books such as the first appearances of Bishop, Sabretooth, or even Thor or Dr. Doom! (don't get me wrong, I love Doom as a character, but his first appearance in Fantastic Four #5 was really a fairly terrible story) Second issues like Uncanny X-Men #2 and Amazing Spider-Man #2 each received high spots on the list, even though they featured fairly forgettable characters: the Vanisher and the Vulture, respectively. These books obviously didn't make the list because of their inherent quality. They're there because they were the second issues of two series we all love. In my opinion, the mere presence of a title and a number two on the cover shouldn't be enough to honor a book as one of the greatest of all time.

In far too many instances, it seems, all the way up to the #1 book on the list (Amazing Fantasy #15, Spidey's first appearance), we voted for books based on the concepts they started, based on what they represented, more than on how good the story and art actually were. While Spider-Man's first appearance was a great story with good art, if I were to judge the issue by itself, there are several issues of Excalibur or Avengers that I'd easily rank higher.

The 100 Greatest Marvels have bugged me for years, not because of what they were, but because of what they could have been. As a loyal fan of the company, I wanted to see some truly great books recognized for what they were. Those books may have been recognized, were it not for relatively low-quality books like X-Force #1 and Incredible Hulk #181 taking spots that could have gone to better titles (and yes, I know Hulk #181 was Wolverine's first appearance. Have you ever actually read it?). There were some fantastic stories on the list that didn't have first appearances to boost their votes, like X-Factor #87 and Iron Man #225, and those were the kinds of books that I wanted to see more of.

Of course, this is just my opinion. You personally might believe that X-Force #1 had one of the most compelling stories of all time, or that the first appearance of the Blob in Uncanny X-Men #3 was one of comics' greatest moments. You might think that sales say it all, and because of that, Claremont and Lee's X-Men #1 deserved its extremely high ranking (and to be honest, it really was a great book... I'm just concerned that its marketability overrode its quality in vote decisions). And if so, hey, more power to you, my opinion certainly doesn't invalidate yours and that final list must have been your cup of tea. But there are many people who feel that lots of Marvel's greatest works were completely ignored in the 100 Greatest Marvels event... thanks to a lack of first appearances, deaths, weddings, big-name creators, and X's in the title. What about Squadron Supreme, G.I.Joe, Transformers, New Warriors, Thunderbolts, Inhumans, or any of Marvel's horror or western titles from the seventies? While we're at it, let me go out on a limb and ask: what about Spider-Ham?

I can't pretend to speak for Marvel fans, Marvel critics, long-time readers, or even for this website; I can only speak for myself. And for myself, the True 100 Greatest Marvels are very different from the list Marvel gave us. Thus, I give you, dear readers, Another Hundred Greatest Marvels. Books you might never have read, but are definitely worth the trip to the back-issue bins. In this column, and several more down the road, we'll be placing the spotlight on some of these nearly forgotten gems.

The Greatest Costumed Hero Story

About six months ago, somebody asked me what was, in my opinion, the Greatest Costumed Hero Story ever. Most people had answered with the usual suspects: Marvels, Kingdom Come, Dark Knight Returns, and Watchmen. And then, of course, there were some who said that nothing was better than Jim Lee's X-Men and Liefeld's X-Force. Well, to each their own. After ruling out Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen from consideration (because, as good as they are, they're not truly costumed superhero stories), I picked a title that everybody else had forgotten, and several people had never heard of.

It was a Marvel series called Slingers.

For those not in the know, Slingers was a short-lived Spider-Man spinoff book that debuted in 1998 and lasted a grand total of 13 issues. It was about a team of four costumed heroes whose costumes just happened to identically match the ones used by the Web-spinner himself in his recent Identity Crisis storyline. I would go into detail in explaining the Identity Crisis crossover and its connection to Slingers, except for the fact that it was written during a time when the Spider-Man books were painfully bad. Since I don't want to relive those issues, let me give you the short version: four kids showed up in New York with costume designs and powers that Spidey himself had used, and he wanted to find out how they got his designs and duplicated those costumes.

Unfortunately, since fan interest in Spidey was relatively low back then, fan interest in a series that spun out of a horrible Spider-Man crossover was even lower. Despite an impressive marketing push by Marvel, the series was doomed before it even saw print. What with the cavalcade of low-caliber series we'd been subjected to in the nineties, many people saw the demise of yet another Marvel book as some kind of poetic justice. And yet, there was one problem with that mindset where Slingers was concerned: thanks to the awesome writing of Joseph Harris, Slingers was actually good.

Slingers was a tale of four college students who gained super-powers and costumes through, unbeknownst to them, a literal deal with the devil. They didn't become "super-heroes" for the standard reasons of 'wanting to do the right thing' or 'with power comes responsibility' or anything like that. One of them did it to hide his genetic mutation, another did it to overcome his handicap, one did it because he wanted to be adored, and the last did it because... well... because all of the others were doing it. This wasn't your standard 'good guy vs. bad guy' book, and there were no secret headquarters, communicators... heck, their team never even got a name!

One thing that always irritated me about Marvel was that they didn't have a Guy Gardner; they didn't have a jerk. Let's be honest: with the hundreds of superheroes we've seen roaming through Marvel New York, aren't the odds pretty good that at least a few of them would be disagreeable? Unlikable? Haughty and difficult to deal with? And yet, how often do we get to see simple, realistic character flaws in books like X-Men or Avengers? Northstar exhibits these traits, perhaps, and Iron Man, Hawkeye, She-Hulk, Wolverine, the Human Torch, and the Thing all used to. How many jerks do you know in real life? Lots? Yup, me too. Now how many jerks do we know in the Marvel Universe?

Prodigy of the Slingers was a total jerk. This guy didn't care about his teammates, and he didn't usually care about helping people. All he cared about was his holy mission, to be a hero, to be the best. He wanted praise and adulation and yet, conversely, he wanted to be a feared Batman-type figure for the criminal element. In the fantastic arc of Slingers #0-#5, Prodigy not only constantly belittled his teammates, but he also ignored them, abandoned them, and nearly killed several of them. He was anything but your standard classic superhero; he was the guy you loved to hate. And yet, at the end of the day, he was still one of the good guys... at least, you thought he was one of the good guys. The shaky ethics and manic psychology of Prodigy made for a special kind of fascinating reading that I've been unable to find in any other comic book since (although X-Statix comes close).

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Hornet was a nice guy. A really, really nice guy who wore his heart on his sleeve. In the Hornet, writer Joe Harris gave us an amazing look at what it feels like to be handicapped in a world where image, appearance, and physical prowess dominate social standings. My early favorite in the book, Hornet had some truly amazing lines, not spoken but in the captions that often showed us his thoughts. I've always maintained that the Hornet's inner dialog was one of the most realistic looks at a teenage mind that we've ever seen in comic format. His attraction to Dusk was handled perfectly: there was none of the usual mutual attraction, and no happy endings. In true Spider-Man style, Dusk had the hots for somebody else and barely seemed to notice poor Hornet.

Dusk herself was something of an enigma throughout the entire book. When I first saw the previews that said that Dusk would be "mysterious," I rolled my eyes to the sky and suppressed an inner groan. The Marvel Comics of the nineties wase very, very good at presenting us with look-alike "dark, mysterious" characters with convenient Logan-esque memory lapses and brooding natures. The last thing I wanted to see was more of the same, and happily Harris surprised me with Dusk. The mystery wasn't in her identity or where her memories went, but instead, how did she survive a fatal fall from a tall building? The mystery wasn't in who she was, it was in what she'd become. Harris used Dusk as an analogy for suddenly waking up in a different place, in a different world, as a different person. Would someone coping with new and fantastic powers have thoughts and doubts like the ones Dusk had? Absolutely. Dusk questioned herself and the world in ways I've never seen the Avengers, Fantastic Four, or X-Men even consider.

And then there was Ricochet, the team's mutant (and thus for you fanboys out there, the "X" connection) who was scared to death of what he was. The book wasn't really about Ricochet, though, it was about a young man named Johnny who hated his father, couldn't concentrate in school, and was having major trouble with his girlfriend. This was the story of how a young man named Johnny, afraid of being outed as a mutant, took to patrolling the night in bright spandex to hide his dirty little secret. It was also a great buddy story, as the interplay between Hornet and Ricochet was some of the best person-to-person interplay I've ever seen in a Marvel comic. Sometimes they were friendly, sometimes they were cheesy, sometimes they were sappy, and sometimes they were scared senseless. Through it all, their friendship was so tangible it almost radiated out from the page.

People often give me an odd look when I say it, but I consider Slingers to be the best costumed hero story I've ever read. This has nothing to do with the fact that one of the members was a mutant, or that there was a cute goth chick, or that they had a Spider-Man connection. Instead, it has everything to do with the fantastic writing of Joseph Harris (whose work on other books has oddly failed to appeal to me) and the outstanding stylings of ChrisCross (and the handful of other artists that took over the book as its end approached). With Slingers we had a story of four young heroes with less than pristine motives who didn't work together well at all. No badges, no training rooms, no communicators... just a desire to get out there and play hero while having no idea what the heck they were doing. And unlike most superhero books, the Slingers paid the price for that arrogance many, many times.

The heroes of Slingers didn't bravely face down danger; they were terrified of it. They didn't appoint a team leader and adapt battle strategy; they usually blindly charged in. They didn't often win the day untarnished; it wasn't rare to see them lose, sometimes with horrific results. I thought it was fantastic to read a superhero book where people failed, where heroes were visibly frightened (instead of tossing off a witty one-liner), where team members acted like imperfect human beings instead of immortal legends. Hornet, Prodigy, Ricochet, and Dusk never fought supervilliains, either; most of their time in the Slingers book dealt with their attempts to come to terms with their powers, their new identities, and each other.

Slingers was met with wide critical success, but a low enough level of sales that Marvel was forced to cancel the book prematurely at issue #12. As I mentioned earlier, Slingers was the recipient of a major marketing push from Marvel, so you can't blame the company for not trying. Personally, I tend to believe that the emphasis on Spider-man in the promotional materials was part of the book's downfall; Spidey just didn't drive sales the way he once did or does now. The Spider-Man titles were still reeling from the aftermath of the clone saga, and most of Spidey's fans hadn't worked their way back to the books yet. It was a bad time to be a Spider-tie-in.

Five years later, the four members of the Slingers are all but forgotten in Marvel lore, even though at least two of the members' futures are left decidedly open in the book's final issue. It's unfortunate that Harris isn't writing for Marvel anymore and that these characters are doomed to languish in Limbo, as they're four of the most realistic, well-thought-out, and interesting characters to be created in the entire decade. One of my biggest fanboy dreams (admit it, we all have them) is to see a Slingers series one more time. Although I do not now nor have I ever had the slightest ambition to become a comic-book writer, last year I sketched out a plot for a new 12-issue Slingers limited series, again focusing not on superheroics, but on real people dealing with the powers and concepts of heroism. The characters and situations are just too good to let go, and I had to see what happened next even if they only lived again in my own mind.

If you take a halfway decent look, back-issues of Slingers aren't hard to find, and there's literally no superhero book I'd recommend higher. I even suggest you search out all four different cover versions of Slingers #1, not because of collectibility or holofoil or anything like that, but because in a totally unique move (especially for the time) Marvel put different, extra story pages in each of the four different versions. It actually was worth the reader's money to buy all four versions. Imagine: a variant comic book that actually gives you something extra to read instead of a different pretty picture on the cover. Amazing.

If I had my own 100 Greatest Marvels, Slingers #0-#5, their first story arc, would be a shoe-in for inclusion (and the next five issues would be possibles as well). Costumed superheroing simply doesn't get any better than this.

Jim Lemoine (who owns a rather large collection of Slingers artwork but has no memorabilia from X-Force #1) has worked as a disc jockey, a video game designer, and a leadership consultant. He's been reading comics for 18 years, and he's been thinking too much for a while before that.

Zach Kinkead
Feb 23, 2003, 10:00 pm
Yay! Jim did that Slingers article that he’s been talking about :)

I really wish Marvel would finally collect that book. I’ve read #0,1(a-d), and 2-4 but have yet to find any of the other remaining issues. It’s a real shame that Marvel and the world’s retailers would just give up on a book that was that great. Books that good shouldn’t die the quite death of an under ordered, under appreciated comic :(

Edit: I finally found the rest of the Slingers back issues at a used book store this summer. They’re brilliant.

cityof02
Feb 23, 2003, 11:31 pm
i got 0, 1a-d, and 2-12. but only bought the one variant of issue number 2 as if was only a different cover, no added story like issue 1. i enjoyed this series didn't think it was a waste of my time or money at all. the spider-man connection was the only reason i at first bought it, but i don't think spider-man was used after issue 2 or 3. the tone of the book was really dark all 13 issues. i'd recommed it as well to anyone who wants a good story.

ps: the 0 issue came with an issue of wizard, which issue is beyond my knowledge.

Zachary J. Morrison
Feb 24, 2003, 12:00 am
Nice article, Jim.

DCUnited
Feb 24, 2003, 12:42 am
I enjoyed this book as well. I was only interested in it to begin with because it was spun out of the Identity Crisis story line. I read the Clone Saga, and I really didn't think it was all that bad (my opinion of course) and the ID Crisis was what really got me into Spider-Man. A few months later when I saw this book featuring those costumes I was extremely interested. I didn't buy all of the issues, but what I did buy I enjoyed.

AngelinLeather
Feb 24, 2003, 12:57 am
I was disapointed in the 100 greatest Marvels for the same reason. Come on people you must have read more Marvel comics than just the first apperances or deaths? It would be something if X-Fan did their own with this knowlage shown to people.

Well Im going to go pick this up actually. Thanks Jim!

Vince Underwood
Feb 24, 2003, 02:06 am
Great article, dude. Damn informative and definitely address some of my own issues. Keep it up.

crozack
Feb 24, 2003, 02:17 am
WOW! I have every issue of Slingers and I thought I was the only one who appreciated it! It's cool to know that it ranks that high on your list, Jim. I loved it too.

But, I dunno, X-Force #1 was pretty damn neat-o ;)

Wolverine
Feb 24, 2003, 03:28 am
Iagree!

Karmapoliced
Feb 24, 2003, 04:32 am
Bleh on X-Force #1. :p

Great article. I've heard of Slingers from a friend. He tried to get me to borrow his issues before but I just disregarded it because of the link to Spidey during that Identity Crisis mumbo jumbo. Gonna have to see if he'll let me take him up on the offer now. :)

Brandon Yates
Feb 24, 2003, 04:35 am
Loved Slingers. I don't know if I would say it's my favorite hero story of all time but it's up there and I can easily see how one would feel that way.

Slingers got a friend of mine into comics, and to this day he talks about it (and now reads many other comics). My other friend felt the same about DC's short-lived Chronos series.

That's the way it goes though, you know? You take a risk to get your heart broken when buying a book that doesn't star Spidey or Wolvie or Cap & Company, because sooner or later those books end. And it sucks.

But that someone, these years later, dedicates a column to that comic and those young heroes, it proves that Harris did a good job indeed.

Fetsur
Feb 24, 2003, 06:23 am
I think Slingers' biggest problem was its messy launch. Four editions of the first issue each with a few extra pages - different in each edition - that tell these characters' origins? What reader is going to afford that on a brand new concept? And what's more it wasn't even the real first issue of the series, the story began in a Wizard special - all right if you read Wizard I suppose but no good if you don't.

Since most copies of #1 were probably bought by a quarter of its actual circulation, #2 probably had a quarter of #1's circulation. So anyone who wanted to start from the ground up, anyone planning on collecting the book, was going to have a hard time from the start.

Thank goodness Marvel doesn't even do variant covers any more...

Inferno Cow
Feb 24, 2003, 07:30 am
I discovered Slingers long after it was cancelled and I've been trying to find someone with issues ever since. I insantly fell in love with Prodigy, something about him was just so true and honest that you could never decide if you hated him or not.

TheBoz1678
Feb 24, 2003, 09:23 am
I've got to say that now that I've read your article I have to take a look at Slingers. I must admit that I did not give it a second glance because it was spawned out of the "spider clone" era but I think I’ll give it a chance.

Originally posted by Jim Lemoine
Of course, this is just my opinion. You personally might believe that X-Force #1 had one of the most compelling stories of all time, or that the first appearance of the Blob in Uncanny X-Men #3 was one of comics' greatest moments. You might think that sales say it all, and because of that, Claremont and Lee's X-Men #1 deserved its extremely high ranking. And if so, hey, more power to you, my opinion certainly doesn't invalidate yours and that final list must have been your cup of tea. But there are many people who feel that lots of Marvel's greatest works were completely ignored in the 100 Greatest Marvels event... thanks to a lack of first appearances, deaths, weddings, big-name creators, and X's in the title. What about Squadron Supreme, G.I.Joe, Transformers, New Warriors, Thunderbolts, Inhumans, or any of Marvel's horror or western titles from the seventies? While we're at it, let me go out on a limb and ask: what about Spider-Ham?

Now on to this little gem of a comment. I can understand how you can say that some of the old G.I. Joes or Transformers or even the Inhumans could be considered some of the greatest stories, but the New Warriors? That 80's spawned nonsensical garbage. I mean come on, the leader of the group was a black skateboarder who goes by the name Night Thrasher, how cheezy can you get. Don't even get me started on Speedball, that's a whole other can of worms. And Nova, NOVA! I'm getting too angry writing this I must stop before I start spouting explicatives all over this forum.
:cop:
Oh no! The thought police! *Boz hides behind his computer screen*

Tan K.
Feb 24, 2003, 11:25 am
I really liked your take on the 100's. When I would go to the store to see what made the list, I was more bored and disappointed than excited. Even though I am a fan who thinks that CC/Lee's X-Men #1 was a great story (possibly the best Danger Room sequence ever), I still see the faultiness in many of the other #1's and origin issues.

I think part of the problem may have been Marvel's advertising or approach of it. It never really stated that it should he based on stories. Many voters probably looked at impact, which #1's and origins had from a reader and external aspect. On top of that, it is really difficult to point out one issue that has a great story especially since one issue is part of a greater arc. Is Uncanny #137 one the best alone? Maybe, but when part of the preceding issues, it is a masterpiece.

Marvel in opinion should revisit the greatest marvel's, but instead of asking for single issues, they should ask for storylines. This would mean fans could pick the Days of Future Past or the Korvac Saga instead of Uncanny #141. There are some great stand alone issues, but more times than not, great stories are not found in one issue.

Jim Lemoine
Feb 24, 2003, 12:45 pm
A lot of the books on the list really deserved it, including a lot of those classic Claremont X-Men. I'm not really saying that Claremont & Lee's X-Men #1 is bad at all, I liked it... I'm saying that it was probably voted so high because it was a famous #1 issue. I personally would rather see more of Claremont's earlier masterworks (X-Tinction Agenda, anyone?) up on the list. Claremont's early X-Men work was fantastic.

And Boz... I'm betting you've never read an issue of New Warriors. I agree, cheesy concepts. But what a follow-through. They even made Speedball cool. Read NW #22-27 sometime.

Monolith
Feb 24, 2003, 01:36 pm
Originally posted by Jim Lemoine
One thing that always irritated me about Marvel was that they didn't have a Guy Gardner; they didn't have a jerk. Let's be honest: with the hundreds of superheroes we've seen roaming through Marvel New York, aren't the odds pretty good that at least a few of them would be disagreeable? Unlikable? Haughty and difficult to deal with? And yet, how often do we get to see simple, realistic character flaws in books like X-Men or Avengers? Northstar exhibits these traits, perhaps, and Iron Man, Hawkeye, She-Hulk, Wolverine, the Human Torch, and the Thing all used to. How many jerks do you know in real life? Lots? Yup, me too. Now how many jerks do we know in the Marvel Universe?


Agh! Now how could you forget U.S.Agent? Jack truly is Marvel's answer to Guy Gardner. :)

Originally posted by TheBoz1678
Now on to this little gem of a comment. I can understand how you can say that some of the old G.I. Joes or Transformers or even the Inhumans could be considered some of the greatest stories, but the New Warriors? That 80's spawned nonsensical garbage. I mean come on, the leader of the group was a black skateboarder who goes by the name Night Thrasher, how cheezy can you get. Don't even get me started on Speedball, that's a whole other can of worms. And Nova, NOVA! I'm getting too angry writing this I must stop before I start spouting explicatives all over this forum.

If I had a religion, you would have just insulted it. ;) New Warriors remains in my mind as one of the greatest comic books in the history of Marvel. NW #'s 1-25 and 58-75 are some of the best stories I've ever read, and I never get tired of rereading them. The premise of taking the random "kids" of the Marvel Universe and putting them together was admittedly a blatent marketing ploy inside another marketing ploy (Acts of Vengeance) but the result was fantastic. Unlike many series, you actually got to see these characters grow over time. The original six members remained active with the team or somehow tied to it throughout the entire run, letting development progress naturally. Marvel Boy's development into Justice (from "aw, shucks Cap" in #1 to addressing the Avengers as equals by #72), Nova's potent insecurity about his place in the world without his powers, Speedball being Speedball, Forever Begins Yesterday, the Timeslip/Speedball Saga....

...bliss...

Joey Meyers
Feb 24, 2003, 01:50 pm
Yeah, that "Top 100" list was a definete piece of work, wasn't it? X-Fore #1, yet none of those beautiful Sienkiewicz New Mutants issues? Sheesh.

Still, a great article on Slingers Jim, I think I'll start fishing out that series now.....

Wolverine
Feb 24, 2003, 04:59 pm
Was Uncanny X-men 137 even on the list?

ImpossibleM
Feb 24, 2003, 05:52 pm
[i]I personally would rather see more of Claremont's earlier masterworks (X-Tinction Agenda, anyone?) up on the list. Claremont's early X-Men work was fantastic.[/B]

Agh, hate to disagree with you, but X-Tinction Agenda was the arc that finally x-ed X Men off my buying list. But Claremont's earlier work (everything before Siege Perilous/young Storm/Gambit/changed Betsy etc.), a solid A+.

DeadmanWade
Feb 24, 2003, 07:08 pm
Maybe two of the marvel i voted for got on the list i was so disapointed. The issues i voted for were Hulk vol 1 peter davids last issue, Elektra's death, Gwen Stacy's death and Last but not least what got my top vote DEADPOOL MEETS THE OSBORNS!!!! Deadpool 11 BEST COMIC EVERRRRRRR....ok i'm done...

David Santee
Feb 24, 2003, 07:30 pm
Hmmmmm. Critiquiting a top 100 list. I don't think this was your best effort, Jim. While you make a compelling arguement for Slingers (I'm now tempted to search down some copies), writing an article complaining about a top 100 list is filler material, in my opinion.

Lists, be it AFI's top 100 movies (http://www.afi.com/tv/movies.asp) or TV Guide to the top 100 episodes (http://www.gabrielmedia.org/news/100list.html), are going to do only one thing, stir up people to talk about why thier favorite things are not on the list, or are not ranked high enough. Marvel through out the bait, and you went for it.

I bet if all of us were to compile a top 100 list, the results would varry all over the board. I know mine would be very heavy in Colossus appearances, while Jim's list would have Slingers, many Avengers and Thunderbolts, AnthonyL would have many Lifield products, and 2Tum would have those 80's retro books. The compiled list of just the four of us would upset all of us.

I got an evil idea. Everybody E-mail me at davesantee@hotmail.com or PM (I perfer e-mail, but I know some of you like your privacy)me a list of your top 25 Marvel books. I will compile the results and post the top 100, with the statistics. I will use the MPV style of vote tallying, so the top book on a list gets 25 points, while the 25th book gets one. Please vote for individual issues and issue numbers, since it will be impossible for me to tabulate votes like 'Claremonts X-tinction Saga' or 'Bishops first apperance' quickly. If you don't know the issue, there are many resources to find out. Lets see what kind of a list we can produce. I have my own theories how it will turn out, but I don't want to bias the results.

Jim Lemoine
Feb 24, 2003, 08:10 pm
I'm not sure I communicated my point clearly, then, Smash... my point wasn't that I didn't like the Top 100 list. That would be pretty worthless, as you're right... we all have our favorites. The point was more that the Top 100 list, as given, wasn't really a listing of 100 great stories so much as it was a listing of 100 great first appearances. My point isn't that "my top 100 is better," it's that a true Top 100 should be judged by story and art quality, not by the first appearance of a concept, creator, or character.

Jazz
Feb 24, 2003, 08:12 pm
Originally posted by SmashOgre
Hmmmmm. Critiquiting a top 100 list. I don't think this was your best effort, Jim. While you make a compelling arguement for Slingers (I'm now tempted to search down some copies), writing an article complaining about a top 100 list is filler material, in my opinion.

Lists, be it [url=http://www.afi.com/tv/movies.asp] AFI's top 100 movies[url/] or [url=http://www.gabrielmedia.org/news/100list.html]TV Guide to the top 100 episodes[url/], are going to do only one thing, stir up people to talk about why thier favorite things are not on the list, or are not ranked high enough. Marvel through out the bait, and you went for it.

I bet if all of us were to compile a top 100 list, the results would varry all over the board. I know mine would be very heavy in Colossus appearances, while Jim's list would have Slingers, many Avengers and Thunderbolts, AnthonyL would have many Lifield products, and 2Tum would have those 80's retro books. The compiled list of just the four of us would **** off all of us.

I got an evil idea. Everybody E-mail me at davesantee@hotmail.com or PM (I perfer e-mail, but I know some of you like your privacy)me a list of your top 25 [u]Marvel[u/] books. I will compile the results and post the top 100, with the statistics. I will use the MPV style of vote tallying, so the top book on a list gets 25 points, while the 25th book gets one. Please vote for individual issues and issue numbers, since it will be impossible for me to tabulate votes like 'Claremonts X-tinction Saga' or 'Bishops first apperance' quickly. If you don't know the issue, there are many resources to find out. Lets see what kind of a list we can produce. I have my own theories how it will turn out, but I don't want to bias the results.

I think we should have something like a new thread about this in here or the news section to get more attention,because I think this is an interesting idea and I had the same idea about creating our own top 100 list too after I read Jim's article.

Radiate
Feb 24, 2003, 08:41 pm
OKay...Slingers was way before my time of collecting,but i heard about it and it caught me in it's cool concept.I have to admit i don't have any issues of the Slingers...i'd like to cos what Jim said about it it seems that id' like it.(I've always championed for a realsitic teen book with a mix of heroics or mutancey...)

Has MArvel done a TPB for Slingers?

If i got to vote my fav. issue would be UNcanny X-Men...something.I can't remeber the issue no. but it was the one where Cannonball was Christmas shopping for his siblings but runs into Gladiator!Best issue ever!I love it!...

RADIATE!

David Santee
Feb 24, 2003, 08:57 pm
Originally posted by Jim Lemoine
I'm not sure I communicated my point clearly, then, Smash... my point wasn't that I didn't like the Top 100 list. That would be pretty worthless, as you're right... we all have our favorites. The point was more that the Top 100 list, as given, wasn't really a listing of 100 great stories so much as it was a listing of 100 great first appearances. My point isn't that "my top 100 is better," it's that a true Top 100 should be judged by story and art quality, not by the first appearance of a concept, creator, or character.

OK. I think I understand. So how would you compile a list of the top 100 great Marvel stories? Lets set up some standards and see what we can produce. Should we set up a board of 'experts' and have them vote only? Should we take volunteers and see what they say? Should have all people who log onto X-Fan to compile a list? People who log onto Marvel.com? Should I sit outside all the comic stores in Chicago and poll all the people that enter? How long do I sit there? Just Wensday or whatever day the comics arrive, or do I go on the weekends? Is Chicago a big enough sample group or should we sample from other sites in America. What about England and Australia? What about the rest of the world?

It's one thing to say the list isn't the best it could be, but how would one compile the information to make it better?

W. Molstad
Feb 24, 2003, 09:05 pm
:cheers:
I hated Liefeld's X-Force. Man, it is great how the new X-Force mocked the heck out of it.
Slingers. I never read it. Sounds neat though. A few of the stories in it that were X-y in the 100 greatest marvels really deserved it, like the Days of the Future Past of course, and the Phoenix ones.
One thing that I'd question about this editorial though is the writer's preference to older comics... 70's and 80's. Yeah, the 90's were terrible, but there were a few good stories, and despite the cheese, I'm sure that some of the 60's comics should be up there too...

Jim Lemoine
Feb 24, 2003, 10:58 pm
Originally posted by SmashOgre
It's one thing to say the list isn't the best it could be, but how would one compile the information to make it better?

Good question. What do you think?

The goal of the column wasn't really to produce a better list, believe it or not... the goal was to get the word out about some great books. But if a new list were to be done... I don't know how best to do it. I liked the idea of people voting, but I'd want them to back their votes up, maybe? Maybe make it a requirement that they actually have to have READ the book that they're voting for? I don't know.

Originally posted by Colossal Gambit
One thing that I'd question about this editorial though is the writer's preference to older comics... 70's and 80's. Yeah, the 90's were terrible, but there were a few good stories, and despite the cheese, I'm sure that some of the 60's comics should be up there too...

Nineties? Ahem and I repeat... Slingers, Thunderbolts, New Warriors, etc.

Sixties? I would have brought them up, to be honest, a lot of them were already mentioned in Marvel's original list, and some of my picks from that era might be pretty obscure (The Battle of The Baxter Building, FF #25-#26, Avengers #16, Amazing Spider-Man #11, the recognized X-Men #9... oooh, don't get me started...)

UltimateIceman
Feb 24, 2003, 11:19 pm
I never read Slingers (wasn't into comics then) but I did read about them in a Spidey book I have. My brother and I were always interested in them. Shame I don't have any issues to read.

UltimateIceman

Arachne
Feb 24, 2003, 11:47 pm
I see the points made about the 100 best Marvel comics as very valid. But I also enjoyed the collection of different comics. There is a wide range of Marvel history in there. I wish they would collect it in one trade paperback.

David Santee
Feb 24, 2003, 11:55 pm
Originally posted by Jim Lemoine
Good question. What do you think?

The goal of the column wasn't really to produce a better list, believe it or not... the goal was to get the word out about some great books. But if a new list were to be done... I don't know how best to do it. I liked the idea of people voting, but I'd want them to back their votes up, maybe? Maybe make it a requirement that they actually have to have READ the book that they're voting for? I don't know.
....

Without accually seeing the list and looking at the raw data, I can only conjecture, but I think almost all the votes were by people who did read the book.

Why did many #1's make the list? Because people bought them. A large amount latter issues? Most current readers have only read current issues. Origin issues and first appearances were also popular because if you like a character, you searched for these issues. It's easy to find a copy Hulk 180-181. It's been re-issues in various forms. But what about Hulk 179? Can anybody tell me who is in it? (don't bother, I found it on Google-it's The Missing Link (http://members.fortunecity.com/jmolinamuscara/imcv179.html)) Has anybody read it? Is it any good? Only a select few know.

That's the reason I want to compile my own list. I imagine it will closly mirror the Marvel list.

As to backing up a person's opinions, who is the judge that decides whos opinion counts. Me? You? the Editors at Marvel? This leads us back to the choice of using Experts to judge, and who chooses the experts?

Gah. To many questions, not enough answers. Well Jim, if you wanted to talk about Slingers, your got your wish, but I think you opend a messy can of worms by using the Top 100 as a platform to speak from.

JayQ
Feb 25, 2003, 02:11 am
Gotta say youre dead on about slingers. I loved that series when it came out, it was something totally different. I dont have all the issues, Im missing 6-8 and the dusk version of the first issue. It wasnt really the spidey connection that hooked me, it was just an ad I saw at the back of another book, and what it said about the characters is what got me. That and troublemakers(by acclaim) were my two favourite series during that time. Wish they both would come back. :)

Alex Guillen
Feb 25, 2003, 07:50 am
I tought Slingers was also a great book but it just didn't get the fdan suppourt it craved, too bad we let ttiles like Marville be around (it does suck) but not great titles appreciated by the fans. As to the Top 100 List, I also agree that they just went overboard with the X-men and Spidey, heck there are other great stories that have made an impact on fans over the years.

Jazz
Feb 25, 2003, 09:21 am
So,the X-Fan top 100 is canned?

Anthony Lucynski
Feb 25, 2003, 11:11 am
It's one thing to say the list isn't the best it could be, but how would one compile the information to make it better?

By actually judging a book on content rather than anniversary issues/number one issues/etc. I have to agree, that list wasnt so much a "Greatest Story" list but rather a list of landmark issues, which doesnt neccesarily reflect how great a story was/is. Dictating opinion has nothing to do with it, really. But given the evidence, you're going to be very hard pressed to convince me or anybody else that the "100 Greatest Marvel's" was an accurate reflection on what consitutes great storytelling. In reality, it was nothing but dropping numbers (similar to dropping names)

"Oh, who's the greatest writer of all time?"
"Oh, it must be Alan Moore!"

"Oh, what's the greatest Marvel of all time?"
"What issue did Spider-Man make his first appearence?"
"That would be Amazing Fantasy #15"
"Then obviously that's the greatest issue of all time!"

Honestly, that's about how much thought actually went into the 100 greatest Marvels.

So how do you get past that? You're right, it's hard to compile a list with that criteria. I have no answer for that. But still, the 100 Greatest Marvels was crap, and nothing but a nod to historical occruances, rather than great storytelling.

AnthonyL would have many Lifield products,

Nope. I like his artwork and his creations, but Rob Liefeld hasnt done anything warrenting a spot on the top 100 Marvels IMO. The reason's I like Rob Liefeld have a little bit to do with his art and nothing at all to do with his storytelling.

I think Slingers' biggest problem was its messy launch. Four editions of the first issue each with a few extra pages - different in each edition - that tell these characters' origins? What reader is going to afford that on a brand new concept?

I dont know. Ask Michael Turner. He aped the idea later on with Fathom #1, one of the biggest launches in Image/Top Cow's history ;)


Anthony L

Changeling
Feb 25, 2003, 03:19 pm
I never read any of the Slingers comics, I stopped collecting the american imported Spider-man titles when they killed Ben Reilly. I liked Ben's character and enjoyed the Clone saga up to a point, but things got silly and people caved in to pressure. My favourite Spider-Man title at the time was Untold Tales which was written brilliantly.

Anyway, while I can't ever remember seeing the Slingers comics anywhere ever, I heard good things about the Identity Crisis storyline and recently tried to get back into Spider-Man through the UK reprints. However those reprints have got around to the reboot and I've decided to save my money! But I'll certainly check any Slingers comics out should I see any at Memorabilia, and would definitely be interested in a TPB.

Oh and Boz?

originally posted by TheBoz1678
I can understand how you can say that some of the old G.I. Joes or Transformers or even the Inhumans could be considered some of the greatest stories, but the New Warriors? That 80's spawned nonsensical garbage. I mean come on, the leader of the group was a black skateboarder who goes by the name Night Thrasher, how cheezy can you get. Don't even get me started on Speedball, that's a whole other can of worms. And Nova, NOVA! I'm getting too angry writing this I must stop before I start spouting explicatives all over this forum.

:{

The New Warriors can't be dismissed like that, go read some of the comics

BoomBot
Feb 25, 2003, 05:10 pm
I say we {or Marvel} rule out landmark issues. Although, I liked Uncanny X-Men #350 particularly and it was a landmark issue. Possibly just rule out character first appearances and such.

Good essay Jim. I agree on most part but I think some of the titles that placed weren't landmarks. I doubt Marvel would take another go at it.

Slingers seems pretty damn good now. I remember seeing those ads for the 'Identity Crisis' storyline but I wasn't collecting comics then. Looked like some pretty good stuff though.

Wolverine
Feb 25, 2003, 05:19 pm
I remember that Golden Age Marvel Character The Black Marvel was the mentor of the slingers. Is that correct

Changeling
Feb 25, 2003, 06:35 pm
That's correct, Wolverine, I found a profile somewhere on Black Marvel (I forget where) that stated he's been used in the Slingers comics.

I think we should not so much completely discount landmark issues and first appearances as long as we focus on the quality storylines. I mean that if theres a great storyline that features the introduction of a well known character we shouldn't ignore it.

silverboy
Feb 25, 2003, 08:56 pm
I was actually a very large Slingers fan until the series ended. Frustrated at Marvel, I sold my entire collection on eBay.

For those hardcore fans, the only outside Slingers appearance I know of was in one of the Contest of Champions II issues. They fought the new New Warriors.

Very nice article, BTW.

Monolith
Feb 25, 2003, 09:43 pm
Originally posted by silverboy
I was actually a very large Slingers fan until the series ended. Frustrated at Marvel, I sold my entire collection on eBay.

For those hardcore fans, the only outside Slingers appearance I know of was in one of the Contest of Champions II issues. They fought the new New Warriors.

Very nice article, BTW.

They also turned down Speedball's offer to join the NWs in NW (2nd Series) #1.

Tan K.
Feb 26, 2003, 03:02 pm
Originally posted by ImpossibleM
Agh, hate to disagree with you, but X-Tinction Agenda was the arc that finally x-ed X Men off my buying list. But Claremont's earlier work (everything before Siege Perilous/young Storm/Gambit/changed Betsy etc.), a solid A+.

I must destroy you for those remarks about X-Tinction Agenda, but that is not the topic here.

I loved New Warriors up until Nicieza left. The Bagely/Nicieza era was a highlight in the 90's.

I still think that Marvel do a list based on storyline. I know they don't have the man power to list every single that existed, but instead of stating an issue, they could state Dark Phoenix Saga or something or list the issues that a particular story took place. If someone liked a stand-alone, list that. I think that would eliminate the landmark issues.

I don't think they should rule out landmark issues, because to some, they are a favorite or the best.

Wolverine
Feb 27, 2003, 05:49 am
Hey what was slingers about and who was in it

Jazz
Feb 28, 2003, 08:01 pm
Originally posted by Wolverine
Hey what was slingers about and who was in it

Didn't the article help you enough?

Al Harahap
Mar 1, 2003, 10:29 pm
Compelling arguments, Jim. I didn't even think as to why the list was such a turnoff for me until you went into it. I agree with everything you say. Except maybe I'm not that committed to Slingers... O_O;;

Honestly, X-Men second series #1 "greater" than the death of Gwen Stacy? And McFarlane's Spider-Man #1? Please... Even Peter David's X-Factor #87 (the Doc Samson therapy sessions issue -- placed at #97 on the list) should be higher than those two hyped money-making landmarks. And that's what the list should've been called: "The 100 Greatest Landmarks." But to call them the greatest comics Marvel has dished out of all time is an injustice to the medium. :hellno:

HNutz
Apr 9, 2003, 12:06 pm
They were MAYBE "Marvel's Greatest Number Ones", but the BEST, the GREATEST issues that Marvel's produced over it's 40 or so years? We ALL know better than THAT.

Does anyone know where to find the list of "100 Greatest Marvels", just so we can talk about what was TRULY great and what was.... less than great?

Tan K.
Apr 9, 2003, 01:52 pm
Good topic. Someone started a thread on it over in the Long Box.