DID I THINK THAT OUT LOUD?!? #5: FOLLOWING THE STORM

[Jim Lemoine]

<img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/images/logos/dittol_logo.jpg" align=left width=115 height=100 border=0 alt="Did I Think That Out Loud?!? logo">By Jim Lemoine, darkkelf@earthlink.net

Following the Storm

<a href="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/4images/details.php?image_id=98" target="_blank"><img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/4images/data/thumbnails/52/gszxmen1.jpg" align=right alt="Giant-Size X-Men #1"></a>One of the most popular and enduring characters in the history of Marvel Comics is Ororo Munroe, the X-Man known as Storm. Introduced by Len Wein and Dave Cockrum in 1975 to help fill a new team of international X-Men, Storm became the ultimate archetype for the minority: a mutant who also happens to be a black woman. More importantly, though, Storm has proven herself over the years to be a woman of remarkable depth, impressive intelligence, and regal self-confidence. She was once worshipped as a goddess, and several of her teammates and friends continue to compare her to a deity for her ethereal beauty and memorable character (I’m not saying I agree with that comparison, I’m saying it’s there).

While Storm was reasonably popular when she was first introduced, it wasn’t until her first stint as leader of the X-Men that she was truly thrust into the spotlight. Cyclops took a leave of absence to mourn then-supposedly-dead Jean Grey, and Xavier tapped Storm to replace him. From a "real-world" standpoint, putting a black woman at the forefront of what was fast becoming Marvel’s most popular team was an admirable, gutsy move by Marvel. It’s easy to have a beautiful woman as a strong team player in a group, but most comic book writers of that time (and well into the nineties) had trouble portraying women as tacticians capable of leading a squadron. It took some time for the women of the Marvel Universe to move beyond the "Sue Storm, Invisible Hostage" syndrome, and Storm was the first to try to break that paradigm.

<a href="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/4images/details.php?image_id=283" target="_blank"><img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/4images/data/thumbnails/188/uxmen201.jpg" align=right alt="Uncanny X-Men #201"></a>The popular success of Storm's selection as leader was quickly followed by Marvel's even gutsier move to make the Wasp leader of the Avengers. The Wasp had never been a team leader before, and several more qualified members existed (such as Captain America and Iron Man), but thanks in part to the leadership of Storm, readers bought the concept. Both Janet and Ororo served as leaders of their respective teams for years and together they made the idea of a female team leader standard through their dazzling tactical abilities.

Or so it seemed at the time. But in retrospect, what was it that made Storm a great leader? When did she display outstanding leadership abilities? Why was she considered such a great leader? Sure, she had her share of good ideas that contributed to victory. Sure, the team had lots of successes while she was around. And sure, she was often a focal point for the team. But the same could easily be said of Wolverine, or Shadowcat, or just about any member of the X-Men. If you look back at Storm’s first two stints as X-Men leader, and you examine the decisions that she made as leader, you’ll find a surprising amount of poor judgment and even immaturity on her part.

<a href="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/4images/details.php?image_id=3092" target="_blank"><img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/4images/data/thumbnails/205/xtxmen03.jpg" align=right alt="X-Treme X-Men #3"></a>Most readers at this point are probably thinking, "This is insane! Storm's a great character and she's led the X-Men for ages! How could he possibly say that?" To which I would respond, "Well, yes, she is a great character, and she has led the X-Men for ages. But just because she's done it for a long time, does that necessarily mean that she's good at it?" Bear in mind, here, I’ve read the online arguments that "Storm is a poor leader because Psylocke died on her watch" and "Storm gets kidnapped too much." I don’t think those arguments pull a lot of weight; people die, and heroes get captured. It happens. What I’m talking about goes a bit beyond these human imperfections.

I first started down this line of thought while reading Uncanny X-Men #170. In this issue, Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Shadowcat are captives of the Morlocks. Eventually they realize that their only hope for escape is for one of them to challenge Callisto for the title of Morlock leader. Kurt immediately challenges the evil Callisto, but Storm orders him to stand down. As leader of the X-Men, she says, it is her right to duel with Callisto.

Which is true. Storm was the leader, and it was her right. But strategically speaking, Ororo's machismo was a horrible idea. Since overt powers weren't allowed in the duel, Storm was forced to rely on her relatively average hand-to-hand fighting skills… against Callisto, whose own mutant powers include enhanced speed and strength. Nightcrawler would have been the logical choice for the duel, as he is an accomplished hand-to-hand fighter exceeded only by Wolverine. Even Colossus would have been a more intelligent choice due to the high strength he possessed in even his normal human form. But Storm instead sides with her own rage and hatred for Callisto, and insists on fighting the duel herself; a duel that there's no way she can realistically win.

<a href="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/4images/details.php?image_id=226" target="_blank"><img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/4images/data/thumbnails/188/uxmen170.jpg" align=right alt="Uncanny X-Men #170"></a>Of course, she does win the duel. It really doesn't make sense when you consider Callisto's fighting skill, but I assume writer Chris Claremont didn't want his favorite X-Man to be humiliated, and further, he wanted to use the story as a plot device to advance Storm’s own darkening personality transition. Thus Storm becomes leader of the Morlocks, and the X-Men escape to safety.

If Storm was only guilty of that one tactical blunder, I might forgive her this little episode with the Morlocks. But it's what comes next that is truly a shame: Storm abandons the Morlocks after they name her leader. Here she had a chance to make a real difference for the mutants who needed it most, and indeed, they looked up to her and were ready to follow her to a brave new world. Instead, she chose to return to the surface, to stay in her lush suite in the X-Mansion, and to only return to the Morlock sewers when it was absolutely necessary. The problem there is that Storm accepted the title of Morlock leader; indeed, she reveled in it. But to abandon your followers as quickly and completely as she did is hard to forgive. It's difficult to imagine Nightcrawler (who, like the Morlocks, has always been shunned due to his appearance) or Colossus (famous for his compassion) leaving the Morlocks behind like that. One might even argue (although I choose not to) that if the Morlocks had strong leadership guiding them, the Mutant Massacre which decimated their ranks never would have occurred.

This rather disturbing line of thought led me to wonder if there were other instances of Storm being, for lack of a better term, a poor leader. In a brief examination, I came up with a surprising number of examples:
Uncanny X-Men #171 - When Rogue, a notorious member of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, appears at the mansion to beg for the X-Men's help, Storm is surprisingly and uncharacteristically silent as the others debate whether they should assist the former evil mutant. Later, Storm comes to the conclusion that in order to be a good leader for the X-Men, she must "sacrifice the beliefs that give my life meaning." An odd statement for a moral leader to make.<a href="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/4images/details.php?image_id=3041" target="_blank"><img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/4images/data/thumbnails/418/secwars02.jpg" align=right alt="Marvel Super-Heroes Secret Wars #2"></a>
Secret Wars - The Professor, recently restored to mobility thanks to his new Shi'Ar cloned body, tells the X-Men of his intention to go to active field duty, thus removing Storm from the field leader position. Ororo takes her demotion rather poorly, blatantly mutinous and trying to convince him that he's not fit for combat duty. When former team leader Cyclops steps up to the plate to help the team in their hour of need, she resents his involvement as well.
Uncanny X-Men #192 - Storm is on a leave of absence from the X-Men as her powers have been permanently neutralized by Forge (in other words, she has no powers whatsoever). Nightcrawler, after only two issues’ experience as team leader, works with Rogue in this issue and helps her learn a bit more about how to fully use her powers. It's surprising to me that in all the time Storm worked with Rogue, she never helped her get a grip on the powers she stole from Ms. Marvel. To be fair, I could accuse Professor Xavier of the same thing, but that’s a topic for another column….
Uncanny X-Men #201 - With the Professor light-years away in Shi'Ar space recovering from a near-fatal wound, Storm believes that she is the only one fit to lead the X-Men. Unfortunately, Cyclops believes the same thing about himself. Scott seems interested in talking it out with Storm, but Ororo challenges him to a physical fight over team leadership. There are two problems with this scenario: First, Storm has no powers. Regardless of her fighting skills and thieving abilities, her limitations potentially make her a huge tactical liability in field operations. Second, Storm's idea - that the strongest X-Man should be the leader - is reminiscent of an argument often used by the brainless version of the Incredible Hulk, and indicates a real lack of knowledge of what leadership is truly about.
Uncanny X-Men #207 - Almost immediately under Storm's new leadership, Rachel Summers runs off to kill the Beyonder by destroying the universe (no, I’m not making this up, and it’s a testament to Claremont’s considerable writing skills that he made that make sense!). After the X-Men talk her down, she tries to kill Selene in this issue. Wolverine stops her by gutting her with his claws. I can’t help but think that a good leader would have seen where Rachel’s psychosis was leading, and would have been able to prevent the whole unfortunate situation. After all, Rachel was obviously emotionally unstable and horribly powerful.
Uncanny X-Men #209 - This is an issue that a lot of X-Fans were very angry about when it was first released. Rachel goes missing; although the X-Men don’t see it, she’s kidnapped and spirited away to Mojoworld by the villainous Spiral. Storm never leads the X-Men in search of Rachel. She seems to forget all about the young Phoenix. And yes, I know the X-Men were very busy after this happened, but that’s absolutely no excuse for abandoning one of your teammates… especially one with the unstable mind and amazing powers of Rachel Summers.
Mutant Massacre - Upon hearing of the Morlock slaughter in the tunnels, Storm leads her team to the sewers immediately… without a clear plan or strategy in mind. Remember, these are the Morlocks we're talking about – hundreds of powerful mutants – and something is down there powerful enough to decimate them. So what happens when you go down without a plan? Almost immediately upon the X-Men's entrance to the tunnels, Nightcrawler and Shadowcat are grievously wounded, with Kurt going into a coma and Kitty slowly discorporating. Later, Colossus is paralyzed by his wounds. Storm orders a retreat.<a href="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/4images/details.php?image_id=302" target="_blank"><img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/4images/data/thumbnails/188/uxmen220.jpg" align=right alt="Uncanny X-Men #220"></a>
Uncanny X-Men #220 - Mutant hysteria is rampant in America, the X-Men are hated, and over half the team are brand new members (due to the members lost in the Mutant Massacre) who don't really like each other. Storm decides it's a great time to abandon the team so she can try to get her powers back. She doesn’t want to help train the new members, or bring the group together, or keep morale up… she wants to go off on her own quest. That’s not even poor leadership; that’s a lack of leadership. Wolverine takes over for her, and admittedly does an admirable job. Kudos to Logan.
Uncanny X-Men #227 - The close of the Fall of Mutants, the X-Men heroically sacrifice themselves in Dallas in front of live news cameras to save the world. Roma later resurrects the team, and Storm decides that the X-Men should let the world think they're dead, that they shouldn't contact any of their friends or families, and that they should use their new anonymity to better strike out at their foes. This marks a completely different direction for the team, that lasts for about 25 issues of continuity. Suddenly, the X-Men aren't about mutant/human harmony anymore, and Xavier’s dream is forgotten. Instead, the team is about war, and vengeance. I had a lot of trouble with this idea when I first read it, and even more when I go back to it now. This isn’t what the X-Men are supposed to be.
Inferno - The demon taint of Inferno is in the air in New York City, and only the strongest souls and purest hearts can resist their influence. Of the mutant teams, most of the New Mutants remain uncorrupted, as do almost all of X-Factor and Kitty and Kurt from Excalibur. The X-Men, on the other hand, have all of their members except Colossus corrupted by the demons... including Storm. What does that say, I wonder, about what the team had become?
<a href="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/4images/details.php?image_id=483" target="_blank"><img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/4images/data/thumbnails/188/uxmen242.jpg" align=right alt="Uncanny X-Men #242"></a>Shortly after Inferno, Storm was kidnapped by Nanny and was missing from the X-Men for quite some time, so I stopped researching there. But the evidence is clear: for at least the first few years of her leadership career, Storm often let her own personal desires unduly sway her tactical decisions, and many of her followers (like the Morlocks and Rachel Summers) paid the price for her poor leadership.

I have no doubt that several fans will call me a "Storm-hater" for the points I bring up in this column. I can live with that, even though it’s not true. What you see in the bullet-points above are simply facts, my friends; I'm just telling you what happened in those past issues. I personally believe that these facts are strong indicators of poor leadership, but I suppose when push comes to shove, that’s just my opinion. Some people will undoubtedly argue some of my points by saying things like "Storm could fight just as well as Nightcrawler" (no, I’m sorry, in hand-to-hand combat she can’t) or "The X-Men were more effective fighting from the shadows" (maybe, but the point isn’t their effectiveness in battle, the point is their end goal and what they were trying to be). Some people are just plain devoted Storm fans and could probably never be convinced, which is sad; once you realize a character’s flaws, that character becomes much more interesting.

For years and years, women in comic books, even superheroines, were relegated to the roles of housewives and cheerleaders. While I'm personally glad that Storm was such an important part of breaking women out of that rut, I remain unconvinced of her leadership ability during those first two tenures as X-Men leader. Although I’m sure no writer ever meant for her to be read this way, I personally like to think that Storm's flaws make her character stronger and more interesting; after all, perfect characters are perfectly dull. And I’m not saying that other X-Men leaders of the era were perfect: Scott didn’t spend enough time on team-building, Kurt had absolutely no self-confidence (and he let it show), Logan was just playing it by ear, and Betsy… well, much as I loved her, Betsy destroyed the team within three issues of taking over, so it’s hard to judge her leadership ability!

Still, it always annoys me when somebody goes on and on about how Storm was one of the greatest leaders ever. Based on the evidence presented above, I must humbly disagree.

<a href="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/4images/details.php?image_id=4890" target="_blank"><img src="http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/images/covers/xmunl-39t.jpg" align=right alt="X-Men Unlimited #39"></a>Look at the X-Men as they were during the original Claremont years and you’ll find many imperfections: Logan didn't generally think things through as well as he should have, Peter remained blissfully naive and emotionally immature, Kurt wasn't really sure where he fit in and was prone to occasional fits of cowardice, and Kitty's inexperience often got the team into a world of trouble. I suggest that Ororo also had her weak spots: she was self-absorbed, and she wasn’t exactly the best leader in the world. Those two facts made her fascinating for me to read, whether the writer intended it that way or not. True, I would have enjoyed it more had one of the other X-Men called her on it, but that obviously wasn’t going to happen.

Storm was far from a perfect character. And that's what made her interesting.

Jim Lemoine (who has a ten-year background in management training) has worked as a disc jockey, a video game designer, and a leadership consultant. He's been reading comics for 18 years, and he's been thinking too much for a while before that.

[Zachary J. Morrison]

Yeah...Storm is definitely one of my favorite X-Man, but there also lies a lot more members who I also love.

[Zach Kinkead]

Originally posted by Jim Lemoine
One might even argue (although I choose not to) that if the Morlocks had strong leadership guiding them, the Mutant Massacre which decimated their ranks never would have occurred.
I’ve always kind of thought that myself. She takes over the Morlocks as an easy solution to a temporary problem and then just abandoned them. Now granted I blame the other X-Men for this too. Real heroes wouldn’t just abandon people like that. They should have done something.
What bothers me even more is that when some of the younger Morlocks (now Gene Nation) came back, wanting revenge for the Massacre, Storm not only refused to take responsibility for her incompetence as a leader but she also tore Marrow’s heart out without hesitation. Sure Sarah was an inhuman monster but she was one that Ororo had helped to create.
Secret Wars - The Professor, recently restored to mobility thanks to his new Shi'Ar cloned body, tells the X-Men of his intention to go to active field duty, thus removing Storm from the field leader position. Ororo takes her demotion rather poorly, blatantly mutinous and trying to convince him that he's not fit for combat duty. When former team leader Cyclops steps up to the plate to help the team in their hour of need, she resents his involvement as well.
Well to be fair, SW had a lot of heroes doing a lot of stupid things.
It's surprising to me that in all the time Storm worked with Rogue, she never helped her get a grip on the powers she stole from Ms. Marvel. To be fair, I could accuse Professor Xavier of the same thing, but that’s a topic for another column….
A column called “Professor Xavier is a Jerk”? ;)
Second, Storm's idea - that the strongest X-Man should be the leader - is reminiscent of an argument often used by the brainless version of the Incredible Hulk, and indicates a real lack of knowledge of what leadership is truly about.
It sounds a lot like the Darwinistic beliefs of Apocalypse to me.
And I’m not saying that other X-Men leaders of the era were perfect: Scott didn’t spend enough time on team-building, Kurt had absolutely no self-confidence (and he let it show), Logan was just playing it by ear, and Betsy… well, much as I loved her, Betsy destroyed the team within three issues of taking over, so it’s hard to judge her leadership ability!
But no problems with Gambit (who has abandoned members of his team as well)?
Oh well at least I still haven’t heard/read/seen anything too horrible about Shadowcat, Beast, or Rogue’s leadership so I guess there’s hope in there somewhere.
And Cyclops has done an admiral job. While he isn’t as good a fighter or strategist as most like to think he is the fact remains that he is the only leader (as far as I know anyway) who has ever offered membership to non-mutants. None of the others (including Chuck) seem to be that interested in a peaceful coexistence with humans and other meta-humans when it involves having them on the same team as you.

I do think that it might be a bit unfair to base the argument primarily on poor decisions she made early on. Most of the characters have grown a great deal since then.

[David Santee]

Interesting points Jim, but of course I have a few problems with your conclusions.

1) Storm's hand to hand fighting abilities- Storm had been on her own, growing up on the streets of Cairo as a pickpocket. If anybody knew what was involved in winning a knife fight, it would have been Storm. An unarmored Pete would have been WAY to slow, and while Kurt was an acomplished swordsman, there is a big difference between a sword fight and a feral knife fight. Nightcrawler wouldn't of been able to 'finish' that fight. In a gentlemans duel to the first blood, I'd go with Kurt. To the Death, go with the woman who spent time on the streets with cutthroats.

2) Storm and Cyke's fight- While Storm had no powers, she easily beat Scott. Why? Scott's heart wasn't in it. He had recently married Maddy and she just had the baby that was to become Cable. THe fight wasn't about who was the strongest, because obviously, Scott should have creamed Storm. She shows Scott that while powerless, she can use he brain to beat a superior foe, while Scott can't. It was to show Scott that the X-men could survive under Storm's leadership, and that Scott could do what he wanted to do, raise his family.

Those comic books, from 165 to 201, was partially about the evoulution of a new leader of the X-men. She made mistakes, quite a few of them, but by the end of 201, she is in a better place to lead the X-men than Scott.

[Ruth]

Hmm, some comments - and please take note: I don't belong to the "Storm is the Queen-goddess of the universe"-camp. I nearly hurled when during the recent Invasion storyline she first could handle ALL of Khan's concubines (excellently trained warriors) in combat without her powers and heavily injured and later could hold herself against Khan (best warrior in the multiverse or somesuch nonsense)

Regarding he duel with Callisto:
I'm not sure where it was ever stated that Nightcrawler is a better hand-to hand combatant than Storm. He's an excellent acrobat, yup. She picked fighting skills on the street as an urchin and Cairo afterwards. By rights, I imagine BOTH should be decent fighters, not great ones.
The way I read the Callisto scene, it wasn't so much about machsimo, it was about Storm realizing that neither the very Christian Nightcrawler nor the very good and dencent Colossus would briing themselves to actully fight without kid gloves. She had come to the decision that she could. And THAT incidentally was what she meant by "sacrifing the beliefs that gave her life meaning"

Leadership of the Morlocks: yup, that was always poorly handled, no argument there.

Reagarding Secret Wars: no offfense, but poor writing and mis-characterization abounded during Secret Wars, don't know,why that's important. But anyway, who's to say that Chuck IS a better field leader than Storm ot Cyclops. He sure made his share of blunders, especiall regarding Phoenix.

Rogue/Nightcrawler
Be fair: Storm was the first one (ok, second one after Wolvie) to reach out to Rogue and try to help her: Uncanny X-men #185 ring any bell?

UXM 201 leadership duel:
the point of the duel - the way I see it - was not so much to prove who was stronger, but to drive home the following point to cyclops: he was torn apart, because of trying to do a dangerous job and caring for his new family, Storm on the other hand could focus on the job 100 per cent.
Of course, that doesn't explain why nobody stopped to consider that nightcrawler was officially leader at this point.

UXM 207-209 Rachel:
Yup, Storm behaved poorly as a leader concerning Rachel agreed, but it is not true that they forgot about her once she vanished: in UXM 210 Storm and Wolverine follow her trace to the theatre where it vanishes, while kitty reprograms Cerebro to look for Rachel and Nightcrawler, while Rogue searches new York for her. The X-Men WERE trying to find her. How where they to know that she ended up in another dimension?

220: Storm 's quest for her powers
It was in preparation of her plan Omega. Again, I see no problem there.

227 and the following:
It was pretty cruel, wasn't it and what made matters worse hat that most of the time (apart from the one time they attacked the MArauders) they still weren't proactive, but waited for trouble to find them.

On the whole, i don't find Storm to be the brilliant leader many seem to think she is, but then - honestly - neither is Cyclops (anybody remember the brilliant idea X-factor: "Let's pretend to be mutant hunters, guys!").
So you may have some points, but with some of your examples I feel you#re reaching. Neither leader of the X-men COULD be truly brilliant, as the book and the storyline had to stay within certain limits. You don't see Storm (or Cyclops) coming up with a brilliant PR campaign to truly improve mutant-human relations (maybe they should have hired Baron Zemo), because the book was about mutants being hated and not about a resolution to that problem.

Ok, leaning back now and waiting til the "Storm is a goddess" squad tears you apart. :D

[Natester]

lol Ruth, here comes Rutog...

[Ruth]

:D Let him come, a little discussion never hurt anybody.
Besides i'm feeling relatively safe, while he tears apart Jim .;)

[shibia]

Originally posted by Jim Lemoine
Look at the X-Men as they were during the original Claremont years and you’ll find many imperfections: Logan didn't generally think things through as well as he should have, Peter remained blissfully naive and emotionally immature, Kurt wasn't really sure where he fit in and was prone to occasional fits of cowardice, and Kitty's inexperience often got the team into a world of trouble. I suggest that Ororo also had her weak spots: she was self-absorbed, and she wasn’t exactly the best leader in the world. Those two facts made her fascinating for me to read, whether the writer intended it that way or not. True, I would have enjoyed it more had one of the other X-Men called her on it, but that obviously wasn’t going to happen.

Storm was far from a perfect character. And that's what made her interesting.
[/I]

Altough we could go on and on about Storm's decisions as a leader (the last part of "Fall of the Mutants" for example), her imperfection as a leader made her my favorite X-Men leader. She wasn't perfect but she questioned her own leardership capacity, as well as other's leadership. And she questioned the Dream...
None of the X-men leader ever did it to the same extent. Ok, Cyclops did it too as when he felt guilty to ask young Kitty dangerous moves for the team's sake. But not as the same level.

[Rapture]

while i love Storm to pieces, i have to agree with the Morlocks bit...

after becoming their leader she leaves them in their time of need... and its only when they got massacre that she came back... if i was a Morlock like Sarah, id want her head too...

[mikey g]

Originally posted by Beacon

And Cyclops has done an admiral job. While he isn’t as good a fighter or strategist as most like to think he is the fact remains that he is the only leader (as far as I know anyway) who has ever offered membership to non-mutants. None of the others (including Chuck) seem to be that interested in a peaceful coexistence with humans and other meta-humans when it involves having them on the same team as you.


Not to be rude but wasnt Storm's Outback the only team to date with the only non-mutant member on it. Longshot. I may be wrong but that is what I was always told.

[shibia]

Longshot, and Maddie (purely baseline human until Inferno).

[Jodoria]

although storm is like my favorite comic book character of all time,i totally agree with you on the morlock thing.but as it has been statted by others,its not like scott or chuck did any better.you talk abotu abandoning xavier's dream...?how many times have charles went out lolygagging in space with his girlfriend or dont forget those skrulls.he abandoned his dream more than any of the other xmen.i like storm for the mistakes that she has made.because at least shes owned up to them.lets not get on mistakes made by other xmen leaders.scott is the reason why inferno happened.why you may ask?this is why:i have an idea,i should leave my wife and my newborn son and go off with my ex-girlfriend and form a new super hero team.and i'll stay with my ex while the xmen save her from sinister's marauders...you see where im going with this one.anyway,though,you make some good points but hey,what leader hasn't made mistakes...? :D

[Zach Kinkead]

Originally posted by mikey g
Not to be rude but wasnt Storm's Outback the only team to date with the only non-mutant member on it. Longshot. I may be wrong but that is what I was always told. A lot of people view Longshot as being a mutant as far as Mojoverse standards go. I don’t necessarily agree with that belief but it seems to be fairly widely accepted on these boards.

The only two occasions that I know of where someone, who was clearly a non-mutant, was offered a place at the Institute (with the obvious exceptions of staff positions) both involved Cyclops asking the party in question to join. On both occasions the person whom he made the offer to declined it. Not surprising when you consider that the persons in question are two of the biggest loners in comics. Spider-Man was offered a place in the team way back in the Stan Lee days. The Hulk (rudely) refused an offer of aid from the X-Men at a time when he was dying due to being separated from his Bruce Banner persona in Onslaught. As an interesting side note, the Professor wasn’t around* when Scott made the offers. In fact when you think about it, the field commanders of the X-Men have done more for Human/Mutant/Meta-Human relations while on combat missions than Charles ever did while writing essays and giving press conferences.

I’m eagerly awaiting a “Professor Xavier is a Jerk” type column, should Jim ever write one.

*Due to being kidnapped by Factor Three and Operation Zero Tolerance (respectively)

Originally posted by shibia
Longshot, and Maddie (purely baseline human until Inferno).
Well the thing with Maddie is that ..
a) She’s the clone of a mutant.
b) Upon first meating her, pretty much every X-Man (can’t think of any exceptions) assumed that she was really Jean. Even when convinced otherwise they tended to have a bit of doubt. Its just hard to think of a character as a non-mutant when the characters think of her as a mutant (at least subconsciously)

[Al Harahap]

Originally posted by mikey g
wasnt Storm's Outback the only team to date with the only non-mutant member on it. Longshot.

The Mimic isn't a mutant, though I don't know how much we want to consider him a member in the topic since he was in the team only very briefly, and being an antagonist to boot.

And then there's Banshee's Muir Island X-Men, which half consisted of humans Moira MacTaggert, Tom Corsi, Sharon Friedlander, and Amanda Sefton.

[Jodoria]

technically,maddie was a mutant in every sense of the word.hell she had mutant powers and mutant dna...

[shibia]

Yes, but she was the first powerless - fighting along super-powered persons (mutants) and aliens.

[Zach Kinkead]

Originally posted by Al Harahap
The Mimic isn't a mutant,
I stand corrected. I flat-out forgot about him :shame:
And then there's Banshee's Muir Island X-Men, which half consisted of humans Moira MacTaggert, Tom Corsi, Sharon Friedlander, and Amanda Sefton.
Moira would fall under “Staff”. Tom would too (he is the guy who used to help train them or something like that, right?). I’m not really familiar with Sharon and I was unaware that Amanda had any involvement with the core X-Men teams aside from getting dragged along on an occasional mission because she happened to be visiting Kurt when all heck broke loose

[Al Harahap]

Originally posted by Beacon
Moira would fall under “Staff”. Tom would too (he is a the guy who used to help train them or something like that, right?). I’m not really familiar with Sharon and I was unaware that Amanda had any involvement with the core X-Men teams aside from getting dragged along on an occasional mission because she happened to be visiting Kurt when all heck broke loose

Yes, Moira, Tom, and Sharon were all "staff," except during "Dissolution and Rebirth" when all the X-Men had dissappeared going through the Siege Perilous (bar Wolverine, who left). At that time, Banshee formed his Muir Island X-Men to "keep the dream going" with Moira, Polaris, Legion, Sunder, Tom, Sharon, and Amanda. The powerless human members were given X-uniforms and firearms for battles, and official, unlike other instances such as Charlotte Jones (who was given a uniform for her own protection).

Anyways, to take it back on topic, I don't think Banshee recruited them to advance mutant/human relations. He just desperately needed the manpower because everyone else was missing. Although, this particular team has set a rather good example of mutants and humans working together.

[Zach Kinkead]

Originally posted by Jodoria
how many times have charles went out lolygagging in space with his girlfriend or dont forget those skrulls.he abandoned his dream more than any of the other xmen.i like storm for the mistakes that she has made.because at least shes owned up to them.lets not get on mistakes made by other xmen leaders.
Chuck is probably one of the worst things to happen to “Xavier’s dream”.:LOL: He certainly doesn’t have the commitment to pull it off. Even Magneto is better at making personal sacrifices for a cause he believes in.

scott is the reason why inferno happened.why you may ask?this is why:i have an idea,i should leave my wife and my newborn son and go off with my ex-girlfriend and form a new super hero team.and i'll stay with my ex while the xmen save her from sinister's marauders...you see where im going with this one.anyway,though,you make some good points but hey,what leader hasn't made mistakes...? :D
Scott’s commitment to the X-Men is pretty much the opposite of Chuck’s. Charles will abandon the team to be with his girlfriend where as Scott will abandon family in order to be with the X-Men. You’re right, Storm is hardly alone when it comes to the area of neglecting duties (Her’s being the Morlocks)

[Peter Luzifer]

Getting this back to the original topic, I neither consider Jim a "Strom-hater" as he brings up examples and reasdons for his view on the character. However just like Ruth, I do not agree with all of those examples ...

Leadership errors in general.
Storm is very well aware of the fact that in retrospect many of her decisions were only short-term decisions and in the long run did more harm than good, she admitted this several times. Isn't that what makes her a better leader ? To learn from her mistakes ?


While Storm was reasonably popular when she was first introduced, it wasn’t until her first stint as leader of the X-Men that she was truly thrust into the spotlight.

Might be true, but it never looked to me that way. I'd say that all of the new X-men were treated with the same amount of characracterization and panel time from UXM #94-140. Each have their moments in the center spot, and it there really was one "lead" character, it's Phoenix.
Storm "moments" from that era are her claustrophobia and origin in #102-103, visiting Harlem #122, her lockpicking #114 and her friensdhip with Phoenix (leading to her knowing about Corsair being Scott's father, while Cyclops did not)


However with the death of Phoenix and Scott temporarily leaving, Storm indeed became the center character of the book, almost taking up panel and plot time of her and Phoenix combined.


Callisto duel
I don't want to repeat Ruth's argument, just to further explain it. The battle and the decision that Storm makes is part of a long-running plot / subplot. Shortly after Ororo joined the X-Men, ca. UXM 99-100, she wondered what would happen if she'd get into a situation that would force her to take a life, since this was something she swore to never do AGAIN. (Years later this was explained as her stabbing a man who was about to rape her when she was 11 or 12 years old - UXM #267)

During the Brood arc, her powers are out of control and hit a space ship killing all Brood in it, and Storm blamed herself for it. When she felt the egg hatching inside her, she was in the moral dilemma she had feared - how to get rid of it and save her own life, without taking the growing life inside her, no matter how evil it was ? In the end she was about to commit suicide ! (but was saved by the Acanti)

In the duel Storm comes to terms with her being forced to kill, and uses this to her advantage. While Callisto would have easily overpowered a non-armored Colossus, she would have expected a decent fight from Kurt. In Ororo however she just saw the "beautiful windrider", that in her eyes was nothing without her powers.


Morlocks
I too thought the Morlocks were abandoned rather quickly, on the other hand there were several hundreds of them, and they still might have despised the X-Men for being pretty and living on the surfcae. Would they have followed if Ororo took them all to the mansion, would Xavier have let them in ?

Warren and Kitty were both in weak conditions, so mabye they quickly wanted to leave (at least Kitty would, because of Caliban's promise)


leadership duel with Scott
Was the duel really to prove who is the "stronger" X-Man, or was it to show that Ororo was better to adapt to the situation at hand (using the surroundings to her advantage, just like the fact that Scott could not control his power without visor)


UXM #227 - let's stay dead
For one, it is not in this issue, where the plan is formed, that would be #UXM 219. What happens in #227 is a chance providing itself to follow that plan ...

Second, you left out one of the main reasonings of the plan. It was not just vengeance and to become a proactive strikeforce. At the time it seemed that the Marauders were attacking the friends and families of the X-Men. Sabretooth followed them to the mansion during the Mutant Massacre, Malice targeted Dazzler in #214, in #215 they find Sara Grey's house in ruins, in #219 Polaris gets possessed and in #221-222 the Marauders are after Madelyne Pryor once more.
The plan first formulated in #219 (after three of the aforementioned incidents) was that the X-men needed to fake their deaths and go underground in order to protect their friends and family. If they were dead, then nobody would try to get at them by attacking their friends and families ...


best leader ?
I agree that Storm as a leader is not perfect, though she was not as bad as your evidence made her seem. Same with Cyclops, who too is not perfect. It's difficult to say who is the better leader, as their styles are totally different.

[wolviechickie]

this was humungus...Storm is one of my favourite female characters, she fights well and looks good...I never realiesed that she had that much of a part in X-Men...and I have Giant Size X-men...her part was(I feel) was needed.

[SQUIRREL-GIRL]

the first x-book i read was my ex b/f's copy of uncanny when bishop makes his first apperence, all the hellions have been killed,
jean has swaped bodys with the white queen and is dieing,
then three strange men appear and start killing some people who also came thought the portal with them...
storm as leader has to stop them.....
bishops from the furture and thinks these x-men are false...
storm shows him they are not....
she takes him on one-on-one and beats the crap out of him with a huge hurricane....
when the team gold team regroups storm wants to go back and finish him off.....
that issue made me love this character
she has flaws...
but thats what makes her great!

[Synch]

Very nice and unbias article Jim.


You touched on some of the reasons I love Storm.She has her flaws.A dark side and she is somewhat impulsive but she more than makes up for it with her good qualities.

I have no need to defend her because it has already been done by Pete and Ruth.

I still think Storm is good leader but like all leaders she is not perfect and has her flaws and that is a big contribution to why I love her.

[Roberto Polanco]

well, then, you know what to do Jim, revoke Ororo's leadership skills in xassault:D

[PsiWar]

alright, she is not perfect.

but the fact that she admits it...

is CC aware of this?

[Anthony Lucynski]

I would love CC's take on this, actually :)

At any rate, I think part of Storm's flaws in leadership and the sometimes arrogant, self preserving, etc attributes we've seen of her character stems from the fact that before Xavier recruited her she was worshipped as a Goddess. I think it would of been very hard for me if I were in that position to go from God (ess) hood to a mutant freedom fighter. What has been years for us has been a relativley short time in "comic time". We've seen this character since what, 1975? But rest assured, 25 or so years later probably isnt that much of a time span in "comic time" (but lets not go there to much, otherwise we'll totally derail this thread)

Keeping that in mind, I think (to this day) that Storm has and still IS adjusting to life amongst the "normals" (ironic considering the group she hangs out with)

How many of her team-mates have been worshipped as Gods?

It's an adjustment that I dont think I could get used to right away. Even stripped of her powers, I would imagine a part, even if it is a very small part (obviously NOT in retrospect) STILL considers herself above others. Because that's the way she was thought of for a long time.

Anthony L

[NicholasRogue]

Jim I really agree with what you said, I too felt that as a Storm fan I've kinda just accepted her leadership and not looked at her flaws, which is sometimes easy to do. I do agree especially about the Morlocks. She did not lead them well at all. I hated her in Uncanny X-Men #171 when Rogue went to the team out of desperation because she felt her powers were out of control, now I admit Storm had reason to be suspicious of Rogue, who she fought at the Pentagon, but still even after Xavier saw that her intentions were noble and decided to make her a member of the X-Men, she still rejected her for a long time. I know she was a friend of Carol Danvers and Rogue herself accused her of still hating her for what she did, all the way up in Uncanny X-Men #244, a long ways from 171, know I think Storm and Rogue have a sort of mentor relationship. But that really bugged me why she was so bitter to her for so many years. I don't know who was the best leader cyke maybe but then again maybe not?

[AngelinLeather]

Originally posted by Beacon


But no problems with Gambit (who has abandoned members of his team as well)?


And where did he do that?

[Sara Owens]

I love Jim :yes:

And where did he[Gambit] do that?

*ponders* I don't think he did since he only got to play leader for a page before the overbaring Storm & Jean Grey took over ;)

[Zach Kinkead]

Originally posted by AngelinLeather
And where did he do that?

Cecilia Reyes was captured by the Neo a few years ago and Gambit did nothing to find her.
Originally posted by Berry
*ponders* I don't think he did since he only got to play leader for a page before the overbaring Storm &amp; Jean Grey took over ;) [/B]
OK you got me there. They sure did boss people around a lot for people who weren't even in charge at the time :LOL:

[blade x]

2 quick points.

1. Calisto (as far as I know) does NOT have enhanced strength and speed.

2. Storm was first trained in hand to hand combat by t'chala (before he became the black panter),while they spent a few years traveling together across africa. She also took some combat lessons from logan after she joined the x-men.

[Peter Luzifer]

Originally posted by Beacon
Cecilia Reyes was captured by the Neo a few years ago and Gambit did nothing to find her.

The Neo plot with cecilia Reyes happened in New X-Men #100-102, and is picked up again in #106. That is the team with Rogue.

Gambit was among the other team depicted in Uncanny and at the time of Cecilia's capture, they had their own troubles in Russia.

[Jim Lemoine]

One reply, and that’s all I’m doing unless somebody brings up something new. Promise.

Some people say that Storm acted out of character in the Secret Wars… I personally don’t think she did, as it was par for the course for her new “tough girl” attitude. But that’s just my opinion… and Secret Wars is considered Marvel canon, isn’t it?

Beacon: my thoughts on leaders in the column only go up to (New) X-Men #1, when Claremont left and the books (in my opinion, again) went way back when. No, I wasn’t really impressed by Gambit either, but that’s beyond the scope of this column.

Storm’s hand-to-hand fighting abilities: I’m sorry, folks, if you don’t believe that Kurt (whose powers and abilities revolve around hand-to-hand fighting) is a better hand-to-hand fighter than Ororo (who had some training from Logan, as all X-Men do at one point or another, and who was once a thief which has little to do with fighting), there’s nothing I can say that will convince you otherwise. You’ll just have to disagree with me.

(of course, on the flip side, Ororo is much better than Kurt at hurling lightning bolts)

Although I did have a column in mind called “Professor Xavier is a Jerk,” (kudos to Beacon for predicting the title), was he really gone all that often? He left the X-Men once to save Earth from the Z’Nox, then again because only Shi’Ar science could save him, and a third time to go into government custody. I don’t find that so bad….

Peter: Your point that Storm fought Callisto in order to throw her off guard (an “Ah! An easy kill!” kind of thing) is never something I considered… and rereading it… no, I can’t agree. Looks like Storm’s just pretty angry. I’m not sure she was really thinking strategy at that point.

And as far as the X-Men going underground to protect their family… well, like the magic act on the Rocky & Bullwinkle show, that trick never works. It sure didn't help a lot of friends and family.

I will (believe it or not) stand up for Storm on the point SpriteGuy brought up… yes, she was rough on Rogue for absorbing Carol Danvers. That’s understandable, Storm and Carol were good friends, and Rogue often acted like it was no big deal. That ain’t cool.

BladeX: Callisto’s powers are enhanced speed and strength. And yes, Storm had combat training from the Black Panther and Wolverine. Nightcrawler had combat training from Wolverine, and had to rely on his hand-to-hand combat skills on a day-to-day basis. My point is that Kurt would have been the smarter choice to fight that fight.

I find it disturbing that so many people always defend Storm by saying “well, Scott sucked too” or “at least she was much better than Xavier.” That’s not a defense. I’ll happily write up a column on Scott’s mistakes, sure (but I argue that none would be as colossal as Storm’s with the Morlocks)… but the question at hand isn’t “who was a better leader than Storm?”… it’s “Was Storm a good leader?”

And finally, I’m not saying that Storm is a poor leader today… I haven’t really analyzed, I couldn’t offer an opinion on that. I’m just saying that in those original issues, Claremont’s first run, she pulled some highly questionable stunts.

[f4faith]

Originally posted by Jim Lemoine
No, I wasn’t really impressed by Gambit either, but that’s beyond the scope of this column.

Nor was I but I have to agree with Berry, that was because Gambit was never really the leader to me. He was never officially given the title as they just followed him to Russia as he asked for help and Storm and Jean took over half the time. He was a much more accomplished leader of the Guilds in his own series while still having his flaws because even with the in-fighting they generally supported him as leader which in my opinion the X-Men mostly didn't - not to say Gambit would have been a good leader but he never got the chance to prove it or not.

And I hate to admit it but it was Rogue who left CeCe behind not Gambit.

Storm’s hand-to-hand fighting abilities: I’m sorry, folks, if you don’t believe that Kurt (whose powers and abilities revolve around hand-to-hand fighting) is a better hand-to-hand fighter than Ororo (who had some training from Logan, as all X-Men do at one point or another, and who was once a thief which has little to do with fighting),

I don't think it has to do anything with theiving but growing up on the streets and learning survival fighting. I tend to agree with Ruth on a lot of this. Kurt may well be technically a better fighter but I do agree Storm was more willing at that point to fight to the finish. Though I agree with you that it was because she was angry not thinking it through.

Both her fight with Scott and her fight with Callisto I thought proved nothing about being a leader and were more just posturing on everyone's part - but as others have noted, it made Storm human.

Storm's poor decission with the Morlock's has always stood out as one of her great failures. Why she accepted the positon and didn't at least return it wholeheartedly to Callisto was pure huberous.

Although I did have a column in mind called “Professor Xavier is a Jerk,” (kudos to Beacon for predicting the title), was he really gone all that often?

It's not how many times but how long - long after he accomplished what took him away. He's been gone longer from his own dream than anyone. (I would love a Xavier is a jerk commentary).

And as far as the X-Men going underground to protect their family… well, like the magic act on the Rocky & Bullwinkle show, that trick never works. It sure didn't help a lot of friends and family.

I agree that the Australia period was not one of Storm's high moments.

I will (believe it or not) stand up for Storm on the point SpriteGuy brought up… yes, she was rough on Rogue for absorbing Carol Danvers. That’s understandable, Storm and Carol were good friends, and Rogue often acted like it was no big deal.

When it happened yes but Rogue often spoke of it as her unforgivable sin later. While I agree Storm's reaction to Rogue when she asked to join was very understandable and justified, it was the Australia period after Rogue had risked her life for the team numerous times when "Carol" started manifesting in Rogue and driving her crazy that Storm (and Betsy) showed her completely poor leadership in not helping Rogue in favor of something that was basically a errant memory being that the real Carol was alive. Would Storm have let Rogue go crazy if it had been say Spiral showing up? Though Storm reached out to Rogue early as did Xavier and Wolverine, none of them had any follow through - or really any shown interest or concern about spending any time to help Rogue or when it got bad again in Australia, Storm actually refused to help. It's one of the reasons, I would suspect that though Rogue respects Storm, they are not close and the same reasoning for why Rogue and Betsy never were close.

I’m just saying that in those original issues, Claremont’s first run, she pulled some highly questionable stunts.

I agree with that.

[Zach Kinkead]

Originally posted by blade x
2. Storm was first trained in hand to hand combat by t'chala (before he became the black panter),while they spent a few years traveling together across africa. She also took some combat lessons from logan after she joined the x-men.
Yeah, her hand to hand fighting skills tend to be a bit underrated. I don’t consider that to be the real issue here though. My problem with the fight relates more to her leadership abilities.

When you think about it, Kurt really would have been a better choice to handle the Morlock situation. It isn’t so much that he probably would have handled the fight better as it is that he definitely would have handled the leadership role better. I just don’t see Kurt abandoning them, especially since he, more than any other X-Man, knew firsthand what the Morlocks have to live with.

Originally posted by Peter Luzifer
The Neo plot with cecilia Reyes happened in New X-Men #100-102, and is picked up again in #106. That is the team with Rogue.

Gambit was among the other team depicted in Uncanny and at the time of Cecilia's capture, they had their own troubles in Russia.
My mistake. Whoops.

Originally posted by Jim Lemoine
But that’s just my opinion… and Secret Wars is considered Marvel canon, isn’t it?
It is. I’m not really all sure it should be at times. Hey, even I think its absurd for Spider-Man to be able to take down all of the SW X-Men (with the exception of the professor, anyway)

[harlekein]

I have to agree with you Jim, as I tend to do mostly. Yet, I think the mistakes she made, although quite a lot, made her into the leader she is today, and she really isn't doing such a bad job now. And these mistakes just make her character even better.

[Cloak]

On the Storm/Callisto fight issue: although I agree Nightcrawler would have been the better choice for the fight- isn't it a no powers fight? Nightcrawler's mutation is obvious and that may be why he was overlooked. Callisto's powers weren't obvious at all, so it seemed it was just a woman to woman fight.

[Queen Artemisn]

First I would like to say that this is a great discussion. And secondly, I would like to add that while Ororo is my favorite I can honestly say that Ororo has made some major mistakes when it comes to leading the X-men. But then, that's why I love her as a character. She's not perfect. She makes mistakes. She takes things personal. And I love her all the more for it. Great leaders aren't born great leaders. They learn from their mistakes and become better leaders and this is what Ororo did. Do I question some of her decisions? Hell yeah, I'm questioning her decision now to keep X-treme X-men away from the rest of the team. But over the years, Ororo has shown that she is capable of making the tough decisions and doing whatever is necessary to win. And this to me is what makes a great leader. Not someone who is perfect, but someone who can make the tough decision and follow through while learning from past mistakes.

You go girl!!! ;)

[rutog98]

Originally posted by Queen Artemisn
First I would like to say that this is a great discussion. And secondly, I would like to add that while Ororo is my favorite I can honestly say that Ororo has made some major mistakes when it comes to leading the X-men. But then, that's why I love her as a character. She's not perfect. She makes mistakes. She takes things personal. And I love her all the more for it. Great leaders aren't born great leaders. They learn from their mistakes and become better leaders and this is what Ororo did. Do I question some of her decisions? Hell yeah, I'm questioning her decision now to keep X-treme X-men away from the rest of the team. But over the years, Ororo has shown that she is capable of making the tough decisions and doing whatever is necessary to win. And this to me is what makes a great leader. Not someone who is perfect, but someone who can make the tough decision and follow through while learning from past mistakes.

You go girl!!! ;)

I've only read your post and the thread starters. I will get back to this when I have time. I can't believe I've missed this thread. The thread starter is correct in that Ororo is not perfect, but he isn't giving her her due.

[myruin54]

im really loving this thread. being able to keep on truckin' (ha) through the periods of self-doubt that periodically descend on her is another reason why storm is a great leader. that and trust. for all the mistakes she's made, the group still trusts her. thats got to speak volumes.

anyway, again- great thread!

[harlekein]

Also, especially after reading the Mutant Massacre TPB, I noticed Storm had some trouble with killing before and now suddenly she wants the Marauders dead, and even in the Fall of the Mutants thinks about killing Havok! She had some serious problems.

[zenith16]

Originally posted by Beacon
Well to be fair, SW had a lot of heroes doing a lot of stupid things.

yeah For Some Some Reason to Worst part's of all the hero's Showed up From out of no where There. Man that was messed up. I Don't know what need or Appeal is to show them Ack like jerk's From out of left Field For some writer's. butsome time's it's Really messe's those character's up. oh well.



A column called “Professor Xavier is a Jerk”? ;) [/B]



Well to be Fair beacon
Xavier was dealing with being kidnapped by Sentinels, or being taken over by other people most of the time, not to mention the near "Assassination's" that keep Coming his Way, like What Took place in X-cutioner's Song's. (and there been more then one) And the space Trip's back then, like the Time, when he left the new mutant's in magneto's hand's, He was undergoing psychic strains and was slowly dying, From that beating he was handed by a group of hostile, Student's at Columbia University, From which his body was still Recovering From, Callisto Did Warn not to do that After the Morlock's helped reheal the Clone body he was in to take it Easy or he'd start to die. which was Why he went back up to Space once again back then, Cause the Star jammer's were the only one's with the Tech to help him,and
he was unable to return to Earth since the Starjammers' special hyperspace drive for intergalactic travel was damaged (without that drive a journey to Earth even through space warps would take centuries), and the Shi'ar stargates were all now heavily defended against Starjammer intrusions. So Xavier was pretty much Stuck up there With the Starjammers.

plus if you Remember half the Time, Rogue Did Do alot of takeing off, her Self From Team most of the time Especially After AOA in between and During the Onslaught period. it Would be kind of hard to leave all that blame on him, Cause most of the time when he was at home to help, she Wasn't and vise versa. and it was mostly Cause of Circumstance and people trying. to kill him or them. that Can't Really be helped.


[i]
But no problems with Gambit (who has abandoned members of his team as well)?
Oh well at least I still haven’t heard/read/seen anything too horrible about Shadowcat, Beast, or Rogue’s leadership so I guess there’s hope in there somewhere.
And Cyclops has done an admiral job. While he isn’t as good a fighter or strategist as most like to think he is the fact remains that he is the only leader (as far as I know anyway) who has ever offered membership to non-mutants. None of the others (including Chuck) seem to be that interested in a peaceful coexistence with humans and other meta-humans when it involves having them on the same team as you.[/B]



Hmmmmmmm. not True. Chuck did Ask Binary. well At least I think . Well she Did Speak to him when she made her chose not to stay and join, so I may be off with that.

But you can't Skip the mutant underground though that was short lived, there were Ton's of human's that he worked hand in hand with. and there Still DR. Val Cooper, to Add to that list, who was An X-Factor memeber, on havok's and Forge's Team, and did Did Show up Regularly in the main X-Men title's For his help and the other way Around.

and From What I understand both hulk and Spidey are mutate's.

But What Ever.

I thought the Term Meta- human's is only a Word that Remain's Reserved in the DC Universe, and doesn't apply to marvel Charater's. Especially since they've been pushed as the Rip off version's of "Marvel Comic's mutant's", on TV on both the "Static shock" Cartoon and "BOF" which is now Cancelled. Oh Well that Show was kinda Terrable Anyway.


[i]
I do think that it might be a bit unfair to base the argument primarily on poor decisions she made early on. Most of the characters have grown a great deal since then. [/B]


Very True. Thank goodness.



[i]Originally posted by Jim Lemoine


Inferno - The demon taint of Inferno is in the air in New York City, and only the strongest souls and purest hearts can resist their influence. Of the mutant teams, most of the New Mutants remain uncorrupted, as do almost all of X-Factor and Kitty and Kurt from Excalibur. The X-Men, on the other hand, have all of their members except Colossus corrupted by the demons... including Storm. What does that say, I wonder, about what the team had become?

ummmmmm, Not every one on X-Factor Resisted. Warren did Fall into it after maddie got a hold of him and kissed him. but it's a minor point.

Great Topic BTW. And I Think you might have set something's Straight here with this Column. Thank's. Now, there's no point in having arguement's About who's the best leader, and what not any more.

They all have their own Strenght's and Weaknesses, and shouldn't be placed Above the other by having some of thier poor chose's and the misstake's they've Each made being thrown in their Face's ( or their Fan's), Cause even with in the comic's the character's Don't Even Do that, Cause They know better. or should. no one's perfect.

And they know What they've Done, is'n't any lesser then what their Fellow Team mate's had done once. Congrate's. Hope to See more of your Column's.


:cool:

[mikey g]

In regards to why Storm chose to fight Callisto and didnt send in the others could be is that she didnt think that Kurt or Peter would be the sort to beat up women? I know a long shot but it fits with both their character.
Wasnt Warren and Kitty's Life depeneding on it anyway? I cant remeber the issue entirley but if so then wouldnt that be perfect grounds to be just a little mad.

[zenith16]

It was the perfect reason to want to save them by any mean's necessary.

But not the perfect Reason to let anger cloud her judgement Mikey G.

[SQUIRREL-GIRL]

what happened to the mutants/morlocks storm sent to live on the afican farm?

[Ruth]

Originally posted by rutog98


I've only read your post and the thread starters. I will get back to this when I have time. I can't believe I've missed this thread.
Yep, we were all wondering about that.... :D


Originally posted by zenith16


yeah For Some Some Reason to Worst part's of all the hero's Showed up From out of no where There. Man that was messed up. I Don't know what need or Appeal is to show them Ack like jerk's From out of left Field For some writer's. butsome time's it's Really messe's those character's up. oh well.

:cool:
A poster on cbr claimed that he'd asked Mike Zeck (Secret Wars penciler) why the X-Men were depicted as incompetent jerks in Secret Wars. Allegedly Zeck answered that Shooter did that on purpose to tick off Claremont.
On the other hand though, that doesn't explain why Shooter wrote most of the other characters (e.g. Jim Rhodes, Captain Marvel and especially the Human Torch) out of character as well.
MAybe it was just bad writing after all...:D

[zenith16]

thank's for the info Ruth. I hope there's a better Answer, for why the jerk Attitued keep's making a come back to the X-Men though? ughhhhhhhhhhh. It's very disshartning.

[jaseybrite]

Regarding Gambit during Revolution, I never felt he wasn't leader or that Jean and Ororo were horning in or blah blah blah. That's a convenient excuse, but patentedly untrue. Constantly Jean, Ororo, Hank, and Nathan are shown deferring to Gambit, however reluctant, during the course of the fiasco in Russia. He's leading these people, and he does in fact lead them into a nasty bit of business with the Goth for no other reason, initially, than the Thieves Guild owes Vazhin a favor, and it's up to Gambit to make good. This point is reiterated many times, even by Rogue in X-M #100 -- when he leads, Gambit's debts become the X-Men's debts. Granted, they might have been pulled into the conflict with the Goth sooner or later regardless because of the attack on Salem Center, but Gambit started this by dragging the X-Men into his affair. Nathan says as much when Gambit and Levin are interrogating Voge in Russia, but Jean repeats the party line:Gambit's team, Gambit's rules. It was a remarkably passive stance for Jean, Ororo, and Nathan IMO, but I did find it interesting despite my bitter dislike for Remy.

Also, note the fact that Rogue and Gambit appear to be profoundly estranged at the beginning of Revolution despite the fact that both are leading a team of X-Men (yes, yes, Rogue was not named and sworn in until after the shuttle crash, fine) . They're supposed to be living in the same house, yet Gambit has his people traipsing round the globe and in VERY sparse communication with the others until contact becomes unavoidable (the Salem Center mass abduction) and they are in a very bad situation. Having foregone his own crap and getting in contact with Rogue no matter what their latest idiotic tiff might've been about -- or at LEAST get in touch with her through Tessa or Forge or through Jean's telepathy, or something! -- might've helped end the Neo crisis with Cecilia and Charlotte a lot sooner, as opposed to Rogue, who let everybody go off to dinner parties and dance the night away while Cecilia rotted in captivity. "We'll be back f'r ya, Cece! Just, uh, let us get a bite to eat!" But until recently that was the rationale in XXM, too -- party down across the globe and let things happen to us.

We were talking about Ororo. Right. Well, I think the column's very well-thought-out and has some very valid points, but find myself embarrassed to have admired Ororo's leadership during some of the times you mentioned...but yeah, there's some serious f-ups in there.

[Synch]

Okay I have something to say.


To the person that started this article.

You say Cyclops has done an admirable job as a leader? True but so has Storm.

Then you say that the choices Storm made in the past does not make her a poor leader TODAY as if it made her a poor leader in the past!?


Storm was new to leadership and great leaders are not born they are made.She admits her mistakes and since there is not mutant yet that can turn back the hands of time she has to learn from them and move on.

Storm made some bad decesions and other decesions that backfired but they all were for one purposed.To help people.


Cyclops has made his mistakes to and no none not as major as Storm's abandoning the Morlocks but no one saw that Massacre coming.

Storm was a good leader in the past who made her mistakes,came to terms with them and learned from them.


The same with Cyclops.


You get annoyed when people say Storm was a great leader well how do you feel when the same thing is said about Scott?

Do you agree?

Or do you take note of the many mistakes he made as well?


Great leaders are not born but made and that is true with Storm.

She may have made some poor decesions but she was by NO MEANS a poor leader.She lived and learned from her mistakes and that is why so many people applaude her leadership.

[Anthony Lucynski]

You're missing the point, this is about Storm, not about anybody else.

Anthony L

[Synch]

Originally posted by AnthonyL
You're missing the point, this is about Storm, not about anybody else.

Anthony L

I am aware of that.


This is a article about Storm. Not a Storm vs. Cyclops debate but I had to say that.

Most of my post was directed toward Storm only and how she lived and learned from her mistakes and how making bad decesions does not mean she is or was a bad leader.

[Jim Lemoine]

Originally posted by Synch
To the person that started this article.

You say Cyclops has done an admirable job as a leader? True but so has Storm.

Then you say that the choices Storm made in the past does not make her a poor leader TODAY as if it made her a poor leader in the past!?

Storm was new to leadership and great leaders are not born they are made.She admits her mistakes and since there is not mutant yet that can turn back the hands of time she has to learn from them and move on.

Storm made some bad decesions and other decesions that backfired but they all were for one purposed.To help people.

Cyclops has made his mistakes to and no none not as major as Storm's abandoning the Morlocks but no one saw that Massacre coming.

Storm was a good leader in the past who made her mistakes,came to terms with them and learned from them.

The same with Cyclops.

You get annoyed when people say Storm was a great leader well how do you feel when the same thing is said about Scott?

Do you agree?

Or do you take note of the many mistakes he made as well?

Great leaders are not born but made and that is true with Storm.

She may have made some poor decesions but she was by NO MEANS a poor leader.She lived and learned from her mistakes and that is why so many people applaude her leadership.

To the person who called me out.

Yes, I do think Cyclops has done an admirable job as leader. I can't comment positively or negatively on the current incarnation of Storm.

Correct, I think the horrible decisions she made in the past don't necessarily make her a bad leader today, as it's quite possible she's grown better at leadership. As I've said repeatedly, I stopped researching when Claremont left the book and the stories stopped being worth reading (in my opinion).

Indeed, Storm was new and some mistakes should be expected. Has she admitted them? I don't know about that....

You are indeed correct, she usually had the best of intentions. But intentions aren't as important as deed.

Yes, Cyclops has made mistakes too, without a doubt (but as you said, none as colossal as the Morlocks).

Storm was, in my opinion, NOT a good leader in the past. She let down the people who depended on her too often, she made too many mistakes. Being "new at leadership" does not excuse one to make the kind of mistakes she made. I'm not convinced she's come to terms with or learned from any of her mistakes... as I said, I haven't researched it. But in what I read, I never saw it.

I do get annoyed when people talk about Storm as one of the "greatest leaders ever." And no, I don't get annoyed when people talk that way about Scott. From what I've seen, his tactical genius and understanding of team dynamics has led him to earn that title. Storm hasn't. My opinion.

If the goal of a leader is to protect and motivate her followers to make their lives (and the world) a better place, then I submit that Storm failed completely in her first hundred issues as leader.

And I repeat, one final time, that if you have to badmouth other leaders to defend Storm, you'll never win. This isn't about relativity people... this is about absolutes. We're not saying anybody is perfect. Tell me why Storm was a good leader, DON'T try to tell me why everybody else was bad. If the only way that you can defend her skills is by dragging everybody else down, you've lost the argument before you begin.

[Synch]

Originally posted by Jim Lemoine
To the person who called me out.

Yes, I do think Cyclops has done an admirable job as leader. I can't comment positively or negatively on the current incarnation of Storm.

Correct, I think the horrible decisions she made in the past don't necessarily make her a bad leader today, as it's quite possible she's grown better at leadership. As I've said repeatedly, I stopped researching when Claremont left the book and the stories stopped being worth reading (in my opinion).

Indeed, Storm was new and some mistakes should be expected. Has she admitted them? I don't know about that....

You are indeed correct, she usually had the best of intentions. But intentions aren't as important as deed.

Yes, Cyclops has made mistakes too, without a doubt (but as you said, none as colossal as the Morlocks).

Storm was, in my opinion, NOT a good leader in the past. She let down the people who depended on her too often, she made too many mistakes. Being "new at leadership" does not excuse one to make the kind of mistakes she made. I'm not convinced she's come to terms with or learned from any of her mistakes... as I said, I haven't researched it. But in what I read, I never saw it.

I do get annoyed when people talk about Storm as one of the "greatest leaders ever." And no, I don't get annoyed when people talk that way about Scott. From what I've seen, his tactical genius and understanding of team dynamics has led him to earn that title. Storm hasn't. My opinion.

If the goal of a leader is to protect and motivate her followers to make their lives (and the world) a better place, then I submit that Storm failed completely in her first hundred issues as leader.

And I repeat, one final time, that if you have to badmouth other leaders to defend Storm, you'll never win. This isn't about relativity people... this is about absolutes. We're not saying anybody is perfect. Tell me why Storm was a good leader, DON'T try to tell me why everybody else was bad. If the only way that you can defend her skills is by dragging everybody else down, you've lost the argument before you begin.


I was not dragging anyone down but I will defend Storm when I have time to do more research of course.

[Anthony Lucynski]

You are indeed correct, she usually had the best of intentions. But intentions aren't as important as deed.

One of my many teachers in life used to say "We judge ourselves mainly on our intentions while others judge us mainly on our actions"

Your post reminded me of that.

Okay, i'm done :)

Anthony L

[Synch]

Uncanny X-Men #171 - When Rogue, a notorious member of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, appears at the mansion to beg for the X-Men's help, Storm is surprisingly and uncharacteristically silent as the others debate whether they should assist the former evil mutant. Later, Storm comes to the conclusion that in order to be a good leader for the X-Men, she must "sacrifice the beliefs that give my life meaning." An odd statement for a moral leader to make.


Storm swore never to take another life after killing some man that tried to rape her. One of her biggest concerns when she first joined the X-men was if she would ever have to take a life again. Now the X-men have been in so many situations and sometimes it calls for them to kill (take the situation with Marrow for example).Storm's unwillingness to kill led to her doing many drastic things (Like during the Brood saga when she tried to kill herself).She realized that certain sacrafices had to be made and now if the situation calls for it she would have to kill.That is my take on it anyway.As for Rogue.Storm was against Rogue joining the X-men becaue Carol Danvers was a friend of hers and Rogue nearly killed her and that is all Storm was thinking of at the time and I really don't blame her.



Secret Wars - The Professor, recently restored to mobility thanks to his new Shi'Ar cloned body, tells the X-Men of his intention to go to active field duty, thus removing Storm from the field leader position. Ororo takes her demotion rather poorly, blatantly mutinous and trying to convince him that he's not fit for combat duty. When former team leader Cyclops steps up to the plate to help the team in their hour of need, she resents his involvement as well.

I will not comment on anything concerning the Secret Wars, ugh! But the situation with teh Professor.Yeah Storm was offended she probably felt that Xavier was trying to say in other words she was not fit to lead the team.She took things way to personally but heck it was interesting to read.


Uncanny X-Men #192 - Storm is on a leave of absence from the X-Men as her powers have been permanently neutralized by Forge (in other words, she has no powers whatsoever). Nightcrawler, after only two issues’ experience as team leader, works with Rogue in this issue and helps her learn a bit more about how to fully use her powers. It's surprising to me that in all the time Storm worked with Rogue, she never helped her get a grip on the powers she stole from Ms. Marvel. To be fair, I could accuse Professor Xavier of the same thing, but that’s a topic for another column….

At least Storm tried to help Rogue and later (but before #192) Storm willingly went after Rogue, allowed Rogue to borrow her powers and then later on willingly SACRAFICED her life for a woman she hated not so long ago.Storm survived of course without her powers but when she did that it showed me that she cares for the member of her team and is willing to sacrafice herself for their sakes.

Uncanny X-Men #201 - With the Professor light-years away in Shi'Ar space recovering from a near-fatal wound, Storm believes that she is the only one fit to lead the X-Men. Unfortunately, Cyclops believes the same thing about himself. Scott seems interested in talking it out with Storm, but Ororo challenges him to a physical fight over team leadership. There are two problems with this scenario: First, Storm has no powers. Regardless of her fighting skills and thieving abilities, her limitations potentially make her a huge tactical liability in field operations. Second, Storm's idea - that the strongest X-Man should be the leader - is reminiscent of an argument often used by the brainless version of the Incredible Hulk, and indicates a real lack of knowledge of what leadership is truly about.

Okay Scott was not interested in "talking it out" with Storm or at least it did not seem that way to me. He wanted to lead yes but his heart was with his wife. Storm not only wanted to lead becaue of her own desire but Maddie who wanted Scott to be fully devoted to her and her only encouraged Storm to do so. Storm challenge Scott not just for her own sakes but also as a favor to Maddie (of course this is how I viewed it).As far as the danger room spar goes.Storm wanted to show Scott that even without powers she could hold her own using the resources available to her in her enviorment and that she did during the danger room spar and in later missions.

Uncanny X-Men #207 - Almost immediately under Storm's new leadership, Rachel Summers runs off to kill the Beyonder by destroying the universe (no, I’m not making this up, and it’s a testament to Claremont’s considerable writing skills that he made that make sense!). After the X-Men talk her down, she tries to kill Selene in this issue. Wolverine stops her by gutting her with his claws. I can’t help but think that a good leader would have seen where Rachel’s psychosis was leading, and would have been able to prevent the whole unfortunate situation. After all, Rachel was obviously emotionally unstable and horribly powerful.

Can't remember the details on this one that well so I will pass.

Uncanny X-Men #209 - This is an issue that a lot of X-Fans were very angry about when it was first released. Rachel goes missing; although the X-Men don’t see it, she’s kidnapped and spirited away to Mojoworld by the villainous Spiral. Storm never leads the X-Men in search of Rachel. She seems to forget all about the young Phoenix. And yes, I know the X-Men were very busy after this happened, but that’s absolutely no excuse for abandoning one of your teammates… especially one with the unstable mind and amazing powers of Rachel Summers.

I don’t know why Storm did not search for Rachel but then again I don’t have a lot of facts. I do know in this issue though Storm was excellent in leading everyone to defeat Nimrod.

Mutant Massacre - Upon hearing of the Morlock slaughter in the tunnels, Storm leads her team to the sewers immediately… without a clear plan or strategy in mind. Remember, these are the Morlocks we're talking about – hundreds of powerful mutants – and something is down there powerful enough to decimate them. So what happens when you go down without a plan? Almost immediately upon the X-Men's entrance to the tunnels, Nightcrawler and Shadowcat are grievously wounded, with Kurt going into a coma and Kitty slowly discorporating. Later, Colossus is paralyzed by his wounds. Storm orders a retreat.

Agreed. Storm IMO should have allowed Magneto to go but she did not. I still believe that even with a plan or strategy the outcome would have been much the same. Storm admitted a lot of her faults in this issue she admitted that she abandoned and failed the Morlocks. She wanted to give up on leading but luckily she did not.

Uncanny X-Men #220 - Mutant hysteria is rampant in America, the X-Men are hated, and over half the team are brand new members (due to the members lost in the Mutant Massacre) who don't really like each other. Storm decides it's a great time to abandon the team so she can try to get her powers back. She doesn’t want to help train the new members, or bring the group together, or keep morale up… she wants to go off on her own quest. That’s not even poor leadership; that’s a lack of leadership. Wolverine takes over for her, and admittedly does an admirable job. Kudos to Logan.

I could be wrong and I bet I am. But wasn’t Logan who encouraged Storm to find Forge to restore her powers? I don’t know but I am pretty sure that Storm appointed Logan as leader until she returns so it is not like she just up and abandoned the team.

Uncanny X-Men #227 - The close of the Fall of Mutants, the X-Men heroically sacrifice themselves in Dallas in front of live news cameras to save the world. Roma later resurrects the team, and Storm decides that the X-Men should let the world think they're dead, that they shouldn't contact any of their friends or families, and that they should use their new anonymity to better strike out at their foes. This marks a completely different direction for the team, that lasts for about 25 issues of continuity. Suddenly, the X-Men aren't about mutant/human harmony anymore, and Xavier’s dream is forgotten. Instead, the team is about war, and vengeance. I had a lot of trouble with this idea when I first read it, and even more when I go back to it now. This isn’t what the X-Men are supposed to be.

War and revenge was not any part of the reason Storm went underground. She did it because friends and family of the X-men were being hurt and attacked. She realized that the people doing this will only stop once the X-men were “dead” so she went underground to protect the friends and family of the X-men and to strike at their foes more stealthy. Yeah they kind of left out the mutant/humanity harmony concept. She did it however because she knew that other people’s lives would be in danger if the X-men remained in existence.

That is my defense in most of the issues you brought up. Keep in mind I don’t have all the back issues stack up in a shoebox somewhere in my closet. All I have is my memory from reading these issues on a now closed X-men website.

Of course I still stick with my main stand. Storm is still a good leader in my eyes because to me she makes mistakes but she lives and learns from them. That is why I admire her character .

[f4faith]

Originally posted by jaseybrite
Regarding Gambit during Revolution, I never felt he wasn't leader or that Jean and Ororo were horning in or blah blah blah. That's a convenient excuse, but patentedly untrue. Constantly Jean, Ororo, Hank, and Nathan are shown deferring to Gambit, however reluctant, during the course of the fiasco in Russia.

If it's reluctant that's not admitting he's the leader. Not to mention how was Russia a "fiasco". They saved the people Gambit went there for by making sure himself that Storm was not captured. It was the later checking into things that did nothing more than bring them in contact with the Goth just like the other X-Men.

This is suppose to be about Storm not Gambit - but since we are talking leadership, how is it "patentedly untrue". A bunch of X-Men going with a friend (as Wolverine has had them do a ton of times ala Alpha Fight, etc.) to help out over one issue does not make them an official "X-Men" team - ie promoting the goals of the X-Men - that I've ever seen before or made the person requesting the help an X-Men leader. What was their overall on-going X-Men mission? Gambit never asked them to follow him as an X-Men team but asked specific X-Men (who by the way were mostly not being X-Men at the time, Jean and Cable were both on break before then) to help out on one personal mission.

As noted, that's never made an X-Men team before whenever Logan's past (or Logan "leader" except for that mission) came into play and darn well Logan's obligations and past have certainly become the X-Men's way more than Gambit's over the years. So why Jean and then later Rogue started calling it an official team when Gambit had never asked for such I still don't know. Or that it obligated the X-Men to do anything since they all had the option being he very specifically asked for help - not ordered as he wasn't a leader - to not do anything. They could have just said no. The fact is that helping out a friend (ala Carol Danvers in going into the Pentagon) has never constituted making that person a permanent leader nor established a group of X-Men with that as their only mission so I don't know why that was suddenly the case with Gambit here.

IF they had ever come back from that mission - which they didn't, they were still in Russia (so much for globe trotting) when they got dragged into the Goth and then ran into the other team - and had decided that they needed another active team and Gambit was ever set up to lead them on an X-Men missions as an official leader then I might have seen it. But that never happened and so he was never an X-Men leader to me.

It basically comes back to if Rogue was not a leader of the X-Men until she was asked to be by the group (and Storm, etc. turned it down) after the return from space, then how could Gambit be when he was never specifically set up as such? More so, Storm and Jean very much did most of what happened in Russia while Cable complained.

But beyond that, to even more really put this home, Gambit's group gets back from bascially what was the one mission he asked them to go on, and they go take a break as more it seems he wants to thank them at his home and the next time we see him back at the mansion, he's not leading anything and is
never referred to as leader again - unlike Rogue who still seems to be leading until Christmas. If he was an official leader - how come he just suddenly wasn't again? And the other team certainly had the chance right then to ask for Gambit's group if they are supposedly "the other team" to assist them in going after CeCe as Gambit and Co. were back before she was rescued.

Rogue drops her leadership because of her power issue and Storm deciding she wants to be leader again the minute Storm returns to the states/mansion. Storm basically lead "the team" - for the most part during the hurricane story as well while they were just relaxing. As far as I can tell Gambit was officially not a leader the moment the group returned to the mansion without ever being asked so I don't see how he officially was leader or was backed as leader at all since he never was seen either being asked to take the job or step down from it.

He's leading these people, and he does in fact lead them into a nasty bit of business with the Goth for no other reason, initially, than the Thieves Guild owes Vazhin a favor, and it's up to Gambit to make good.

Exactly - which makes him "taking" a bunch of friends after asking on a personal mission not an X-Men team leader and he's bascially the temporary major guide as he knows what he needs for them to do. Why Jean, Rogue etc. seemed to make that out to first be an offical team doing the X-Men's mission not just friends helping out a friend and to be somehow Gambit making it the X-Men's debt since they could have said no was one of the poor characterization writing issues I had with that whole period. It was like CC was making up a forced issue. That by saying it over and over, it made it a fact as compared to the idea making sense on it's own merit or truly being shown to exist. (ie to use Phil's example of Neal here - you can't make him into an character with depth by having Bishop state he's someone important in the future). It did not make Gambit an X-Men leader to me just because he asked for help on one issue and Jean keeps telling Cable he's leader. If he was then why did Cable have to be reminded every other second? Rogue and Jean repeatedly saying it with no real corresponding back up in the story where Gambit actually gets to lead a team on an X-Men mission doesn't make it so.

I did find it interesting despite my bitter dislike for Remy.

Which might be coloring you perspective. ;)

As for Storm or Logan or Jean or any of the other X-Men, them asking for their friends to help out once and therefore their request sort of puts them somewhat in charge for one mission, would not make them a leader of the X-Men or their continuing purpose to me either. Never has in Logan's case, and I haven't seen Jean have past that amounted to much outside the X-Men for the issue to ever come up but I'd still feel the same. And Storm's obligations (ala the Morlocks) certainly became the X-Men's when she was leader not when she just asked for help on one specific issue as a team member. ;)

[Zach Kinkead]

Originally posted by f4faith
And Storm's obligations (ala the Morlocks) certainly became the X-Men's when she was leader not when she just asked for help on one specific issue as a team member. ;)

How do you figure that? Storm was the leader (in theory anyway) of the Morlocks. Not Kurt. Not Kitty. Not Peter. Just Storm. It was her burden and her’s alone.

If the other X-Men had any obligation at all to the Morlocks* it was because they were fellow mutants in need not because both teams happened to have the same leader.

*and yes, I think they did just because the Morlocks were fellow mutants in need.

[f4faith]

Originally posted by Beacon
How do you figure that? Storm was the leader (in theory anyway) of the Morlocks. Not Kurt. Not Kitty. Not Peter. Just Storm. It was her burden and her’s alone.

It may have been her burden alone but as she was the leader of the X-Men as well, the few times when she went to address anything to do with the Morlocks she always ended up dragging some of them along too. Thereby making the Morlocks an defacto obligation of the "X-Men" as well (not specifically one particular X-Man).

If the other X-Men had any obligation at all to the Morlocks* it was because they were fellow mutants in need not because both teams happened to have the same leader.

That too, but all Storm's interactions with the Morlocks involved the X-Men. In the end, they were as much involved with them due to Storm's leadership (or lack thereof) as the fact that the Morlocks were just mutants. Storm never handled a Morlock issue without the X-Men.

Basically if the only interaction the X-Men had with the Morlocks was one incident or two that was related to them being mutants or a special request from Storm while she handled her other interactions and leadership duties alone, I would see it as only Storm's obligation/responsiblity with some friendship/mutant help by the X-Men. But that was never the case. The X-men were always helping out with what little Storm did with the Morlocks making them an X-Men responsibility by default.

Not to say the X-Men objected (they didn't nor did they seem terribly concerned Storm didn't really lead the Morlocks) but their complicity does not change the fact that her responsiblities to the Morlocks were routinely treated as basically the X-Men's as well.

:storm:

[Zach Kinkead]

Originally posted by f4faith
It may have been her burden alone but as she was the leader of the X-Men as well, the few times when she went to address anything to do with the Morlocks she always ended up dragging some of them along too. Thereby making the Morlocks an defacto obligation of the "X-Men" as well (not specifically one particular X-Man).
I work for Eric but that doesn’t mean I’m obligated to help him with things that happen outside of X-Fan. Why should the X-Men have to be the ones stuck taking care of Storms personal problems?

[f4faith]

Originally posted by Beacon
I work for Eric but that doesn’t mean I’m obligated to help him with things that happen outside of X-Fan. Why should the X-Men have to be the ones stuck taking care of Storms personal problems?

Exactly. Yet they did "get stuck" taking care of Storm's issues with the Morlocks as she as the X-Men's leader too took them with her the few times she had any dealing with the Morlocks after becoming their leader - it was never asked, it just happened. Therefore they became obligated/involved through Storm by default. No one's saying it had to be that way - they could have objected - but I am saying that it did happen.

[Jodoria]

THE MORLOCK DEATHS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED WHETHER IF STORM WAS THER OR NOT.IT DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE.IF SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN THERE, SHE WOULD HAVE SIMPLY DIED WITH THEM.THEY WOULD STILL BE DEAD BECAUSE SINISTER WANTED THEM DEAD.SO HOW CAN PEOPLE BLAME STORM FOR THAT HAPPENING?

[Zach Kinkead]

Originally posted by Jodoria
SO HOW CAN PEOPLE BLAME STORM FOR THAT HAPPENING?

Because at the very least she could have saved a few more Morlocks if she was there.

And don't post in all caps. You know better than that.

[Jodoria]

Originally posted by Beacon

And don't post in all caps. You know better than that.

my fault.i just typed with the cap lock on.really want paying much attention to the cap lock button.well,its off now.

[Marvel Boy]

Storm is the greatest. She's a very awesome team leader in X-Treme X-men.

[Jodoria]

Yeah!!!!!!;)

[shibia]

So Jim, now we need at least 3 other columns :
- one, Charles Xavier follower of the Dream ? or The professor is a jerk (I'll read both)
- Two, Scott Summers - leader of the X-Men
- third, Remy Lebeau is he fit to lead the X-men and /or the Guilds ?

;) Good luck for those.

[Ruth]

Regarding the Morlock responsibility:
Wouldn't a huge chunk fo that actually fall on Charles's shoulders? He's the amn with the dream of helping and saving all mutants (whereas the x-men at that time were mainly depicted as warriors), he's the one with financial means and the connections.
What was missing was a scene where Chuck and Storm would have developed strategies on how to help the Morlocks...

[Synch]

Didn't Storm offer the Morlocks to stay at the mansion and they declined?

I could be wrong but I thought she did.

[f4faith]

Originally posted by Ruth
What was missing was a scene where Chuck and Storm would have developed strategies on how to help the Morlocks...

Good point Ruth. But I would add it needed both that and then some follow-through with the concept. It really wouldn't have changed my opinion much if we had that scene but then like with Xavier's (and others) mentioning of Rogue's power issues, nothing was ever seen being done or improved.

[Al Harahap]

Originally posted by shibia
So Jim, now we need at least 3 other columns :
- one, Charles Xavier follower of the Dream ? or The professor is a jerk (I'll read both)
- Two, Scott Summers - leader of the X-Men
- third, Remy Lebeau is he fit to lead the X-men and /or the Guilds ?

;) Good luck for those.

Good calls. Although, I myself am waiting for "X-Men: Instigators of Fanfights." :)

[Jim Learning]

Originally posted by Al Harahap
Good calls. Although, I myself am waiting for "X-Men: Instigators of Fanfights." :)
:LOL: Good one! I'd love to see that. For a bunch of comics that supposed to be about the idea of racial unity, it sure drives a lot of folks (especially here) apart.

[SQUIRREL-GIRL]

Originally posted by Synch
Didn't Storm offer the Morlocks to stay at the mansion and they declined?

I could be wrong but I thought she did.
she did.
I think her leadership is questionable at times
but the points jim made were rather vauge to say that shes a bad leader...
when rachel was kiddnapped,the rest of the team did not forgot about her,there was intend to be a big storyline about phoenix and james jaspers,but the editors nixed it[ it sort of came up later in excabular]
i think they all thought she was off finding her-self!
anyway,cyclops did the same a few years ago with bishop,once he was lost in space he was forgot about untill his one shot and series.
i did'nt see them looking for him
lol

[Anthony Lucynski]

I think her leadership is questionable at times
but the points jim made were rather vauge to say that shes a bad leader...


Vauge? Jim did an indepth analysise of several instances in the characters past that showed very huge flaws in her leadership capabilities. He covered all bases, and made sure to do his research. If that's being "vauge" i'd hate to see Jim be precise!

Besides, Jim has said repeatedly that this column isnt about wheather or not she is a good leader (now). This is about her past, and wheather or not she deserves to be looked on (in retrospect) as a "great leader".

anyway,cyclops did the same a few years ago with bishop,once he was lost in space he was forgot about untill his one shot and series.
i did'nt see them looking for him

(slams head repeatedly against wall)

It SO does not matter what Cyclops did ten years ago, last year, or five minutes ago. Not when we are talking about Storm and HER faults.

Gah!

Anthony L

[SQUIRREL-GIRL]

ok lol
im allowed to have my opinion
however he did say he stopped researching after chris left
which was a couple of years ago now
[not including the 2000 revamp]
where she has now become a great leader

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by mikey g
Not to be rude but wasnt Storm's Outback the only team to date with the only non-mutant member on it. Longshot. I may be wrong but that is what I was always told.

What about the Juggernaught? He isn't a mutant

[Joey Meyers]

Originally posted by SQUIRREL-GIRL
ok lol
im allowed to have my opinion
however he did say he stopped researching after chris left
which was a couple of years ago now
[not including the 2000 revamp]
where she has now become a great leader

That's the point of the article. It's not "Is Storm a good leader now or is she not" it's "Was Storm a good leader in the begining or not"


Originally posted by mikey g

Not to be rude but wasnt Storm's Outback the only team to date with the only non-mutant member on it. Longshot. I may be wrong but that is what I was always told.

Well there's the New Mutants, which had Warlock as a member, who was an alien. Didn't Excalibur have some non-mutant and/or alien members as well?

[Anthony Lucynski]

im allowed to have my opinion

Sure you are! Nobody's saying that you arent, but we are trying to stay on topic here, and your post isnt even dealing with the topic. This has nothing to do with other X-men, nor does it have anything to do with Storm of today.

Anthony L

[Hail]

I have no doubt that several fans will call me a "Storm-hater" for the points I bring up in this column. I can live with that, even though it’s not true. What you see in the bullet-points above are simply facts, my friends; I'm just telling you what happened in those past issues. I personally believe that these facts are strong indicators of poor leadership, but I suppose when push comes to shove, that’s just my opinion.

Actually it's cool to have an opinion, and we all have 'em! The problem I have with your argument is that you say you are just quoting facts, but you're not. Embedded in each one of your bullits are very obvious and blatant opinions. The facts that can't speak for themselves if they are wrapped in your opinion. Storm challenges Cyke to a duel...that's a fact. What you tagged at the end "Storm's idea - that the strongest X-Man should be the leader - is reminiscent of an argument often used by the brainless version of the Incredible Hulk, and indicates a real lack of knowledge of what leadership is truly about." Now that, that is wholly opinion. And a wrong read of the situation, imo, but others have already articluated that, so I don't have to repeat it.


So these are not simple facts, as you put it, just your reading of them.

And as far as I'm concerned, I clearly disagree with your analysis. But I would also disagree with your analysis of what constitutes a good leader, which is also part of this argument. But it was an interesting read.

On an aside, I completely disagree with Storm being a goddess and somehow still thinking that she is better than everyone else somehow. I agree that she did have issues with that. But she remembers where she came from; it wasn't like she was born like that. It was brought up here, but it's a tangent so I'll quit!

thanks, hail

[crozack]

Well, I have to admit that I never really give Storm much attention when reading the X-books and now alot less since I don't read X-treme. I picked up reading the X-books in Lobdell era when there were, like, fifteen X-Men so it was hard to focus on Storm. Also, being a white male and Storm being a black female, (no matter how attractive she is drawn) I suppose I can't really relate to her.

But in reading most of the arguments given at the beginning of this post, I must agree that she was not the best leader. But who can argue with results? The X-Men have been mostly successful so far.

Besides, if a tall, amazonian african woman with a bellowing, thick accent and flowing white hair who is able to command the very forces of nature is a member of your superhero team, wouldn't it be hard for you to not make her the leader? Storm's very appearance commands respect and even fear in the case of the ememies.

As for Storm's personality, you must remember that Storm was raised a theif so she is probably gonna have some issues with fits of rage and selfishness. And she might just be a pretty good hand-to-hand combatant if she had to survive on the streets of Cairo and was able to pick the pocket of the most powerful telepath on Earth.

So, I guess my answer is: No, she wasn't a great leader. But she is a bearable one. There are only a few who I would figure would be better than her:

Any of the original X-Men: they know Xavier's dream the best and they have all shown the maturity and experience to lead the team (even Bobby).
Wolverine: He's been around the block a couple times and is fiercely loyal. I think if he is put in a responsible role such as leader he can keep his anger in check.
Nightcrawler: Did a good job leading Excalibur and with his religious principles, he knows what is the right choice morally, which is what the X-Men are all about: morals.
Banshee: He used to be a cop so he knows all about playing on a team and knowing your role. He was also a teacher in Generation X so he could lead.

Other than those listed, I don't really see a better leader in the X-books.

Storm is okay in my mind.

[Jon Hancock]

the whole street thief thing is over rated. i wouldn't want fagin, oliver twist or the artful dodger leading my team.

[NicholasRogue]

I don't think that Storm is the greatest X-Men leader. Like Bishop said in X-Treme X-Men #36 "Too stubborn...that'll be the death of you" She's way too self-involved, but that does have its good points. She's done good things for the team, but the Morlocks was a big loss on her part.

[Anand Khatri]

Originally posted by NicholasRogue
I don't think that Storm is the greatest X-Men leader. Like Bishop said in X-Treme X-Men #36 &quot;Too stubborn...that'll be the death of you&quot; She's way too self-involved, but that does have its good points. She's done good things for the team, but the Morlocks was a big loss on her part.

i agree. but great leader for the x-men would be beast and emma frost. cuz they gets the job done and doesn't mind getting their hands dirty.

[2Claws]

Originally posted by shibia
So Jim, now we need at least 3 other columns :
- one, Charles Xavier follower of the Dream ? or The professor is a jerk (I'll read both)
- Two, Scott Summers - leader of the X-Men
- third, Remy Lebeau is he fit to lead the X-men and /or the Guilds ?

;) Good luck for those.

Yes, we also need columns on Captain America, Reed Richards, Mac and Heather MacDonald, Nightcrawler et all.

Someone has to be the perfect leader. :)